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Proposed local and global Space Marine changes

 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:08 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
true, but with the rather excellent scout formations to pump activation count, Marine armies rarely struggle for activations...

Yep and their strategy rating helps too. If varies depending on the opposing army and terrain, but some games I like to hide most or all my marines, win the strategy and force my opponent to act first and then delay with unimportant activations at the start and then strike at the end of the turn and hopefully again at the start of next turn.

One more thing I'd love you to change please K - Razorbacks. The HB version is WAY worse than the HB version and never taken competitively, as AT is worth more than AP even without the extra range.

Could either the Las Razorback's FF be nerfed to 6+ or preferably the HB Razorback be boosted to FF4+? It wouldn't need a new separate profile, just a figure added in brackets with a mention in the notes - similar has been done for the Daemon Prince's variable save or the variable FF depending on weapon options for the Net-EA Gorgon. If an Attack Bike gets FF4+ it doesn't seem unreasonable for a vehicle armed with a twin HB (and optionally an extra Stormbolter) to have 4+ too.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:30 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Mrdiealot wrote:
"Terminators with 4 land raiders in a landing craft is a brutal beast...."

And cost 800 points


Now I may not have all your fancy book learnin' but I'm pretty sure 350 + (4*75) != 800


I was including the Landing Craft in that combo, and that makes 900 points.

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so they better be! But I very much hesitate to put 550 points of anything in a Landing Craft, since I'm one crit away from losing everything.


kyussinchains wrote:
okay that's your style, but just because *you personally* won't play it that way doesn't mean nobody else will....


The point was comparing it to the Warlord, or a Reaver. I think it still comes up wanting.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:35 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
true, but with the rather excellent scout formations to pump activation count, Marine armies rarely struggle for activations...


I personally find the Scout and Chosen formations to be highly problematic. But since they are the way they are, their existence might be a valid argument against making LR too cheap.

In the Dark Angels I've restricted them, taken away their transports and made them more expensive (in exchange for getting Sniper as standard). But in Vanilla Marines those guardrails are obviously missing.

GlynG wrote:
One more thing I'd love you to change please K - Razorbacks. The HB version is WAY worse than the HB version and never taken competitively, as AT is worth more than AP even without the extra range.

Could either the Las Razorback's FF be nerfed to 6+ or preferably the HB Razorback be boosted to FF4+?


I think this sounds like an excellent suggestion.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:50 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
- Land Raider upgrades to get a price break, 1 for 75pts, 2 for 125pts For similar reasons to vindicators, land raider upgrades are rarely used, this and the vindicator change are already adopted in the Imperial Fists list and the sky hasn't fallen yet


What would 3 for a tactical formation cost, as only taking 2 would not allow them to be carried in a LC.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:41 am 
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I actually like 3+ tacs, this is what they should be anyway IMO. Cutting the heavy weapons to 1 in 2 is fine too. Though ISTR in 40K 3rd ed they did allow 1 per 5 man subteam, but it was years ago. No idea what the story is now.

TBH though I think the marine list has big internal point cost balance problems. There's not a cat in hell's chance that scouts are only worth 1/2 a tac formation, and thunderhawks are too cheap which makes things that go in thunderhawks appear too cheap. Captains and librarians are too expensive, etc etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:44 am 
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Also to add: if we start to do 10 point upgrades for speeders and snipers, the time has come to use that greater points granularity in other parts of the list. This could really help out characters, possibly create an opportunity to do something with attack bikes.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
I actually like 3+ tacs, this is what they should be anyway IMO. Cutting the heavy weapons to 1 in 2 is fine too. Though ISTR in 40K 3rd ed they did allow 1 per 5 man subteam, but it was years ago. No idea what the story is now.

Background in 40k 3rd ed. (it's never changed) was 1 heavy weapon per 10. 2nd ed. allowed a player to take a 10 man Tac. squad and split it into 2 x 5 man 'combat squads' on different parts of the battlefield, one of which could have a heavy weapon. 3rd ed. simplified and allowed 5-10 strong Tac. units in the army list, with the explanation that the rest of the squad could have been killed off, or they could have split up into two combat squads and the other half of the squad could be fighting off table on the battlefield nextdoor. That explanation is fine for a squad or two but when a player takes a couple of Tac formations in Epic all 12 stands would have to be half strength squads that have residually ended up with the heavy weapons (or we assume that on the battlefield nextdoor there are 12 more Tac stands that are the other halves of the squads we're fielding that lucked out and carry no heavy weapons at all so that the overall numbers balance) and either stretches credulity to ridiculous levels.

I understand in 3rd ed. Tacs. weren't much good and competitively people took all 5 man squads with both a heavy and special weapon in each. I find it perplexing and crazy that Jervis and the EpicA developers based their Epic stats for Tacs. on the min maxing habits of win at all costs tournaments players when that contravened the background and the rules of the Codex Astartes (that most chapters view as their holy book akin to how a devout Christian might view the bible). Perhaps they thought the background might get changed so that 5 men Tac. squads with a heavy would be allowed? What actually happened though was that GW recognised it as a problem in the army list and fixed it - since the 5th ed SM codex a decade ago you can field a 5-10 model Tac squad but if you want to take a special and heavy weapon you have to field a full 10 man squad.

I'd love to see Tacs be corrected to 1 heavy weapon per two stands in Epic. It would correctly differentiate Dev's as the long range shooting specialists and could be done as a trade with the FF3+ change, but players are so used to the Epic's norm of doing them wrong there'd be resistance.

This thread is making me fancy digging out my marine army and paying some games with them again :) There's a perception that ground mechanised SM are un-competitive and that was the case in the original rulebook list and still mostly so with the Epic-UK list but with the various changes and points drops made some years ago to the Net-EA list it can quite viably be run that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:45 pm 
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I can't think of a game I played with the Codex list that didn't have two tactical formations in it. Given how well I do with Codex I don't think they need an adjustment at all.

For the Land Raider and Vidicator, what about +60 and +35 for them? Typhoons and Snipers might be going to +10 each, so the more things at +10 is good for hitting 3k right on the nose.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:05 am 
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Okay consider this the new list for imminent ERC proposal:

-Thunderhawks to air allowance
-Vindicator upgrades to 50pts for 1, 75pts for 2
-Land Raider upgrades to 75pts for 1, 125pts for 2, 200 for 3, 250 for 4
-Typhoons back to 10pts each (it was a stupid change moving to that godawful 25/50 split just to placate AoC and his neuroses)
-Heavy Bolter razorbacks to FF4+
-Sniper upgrade to 10pts per stand (although I personally prefer the all or nothing 50pts for the entire formation)

These are the things I would like testing and feedback on, preferably in all lists containing the vanilla version of them:

-Whirlwinds to 275pts
-Tacticals to FF3+ with no cost increase

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:51 am 
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Why not 3 land raiders for 175? You first lower the price and then up it again if it goes to 200 for 3 (75p for first, 50p for second then 75p for third again).

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:18 am 
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actually overall you shave 25pts off the current price if choosing 3 ;)

making it 75/125/175/225 is pretty much 50pts each except for the first one.... maybe that's enough but I'm not convinced

I'll try and get some tests in, 550pt terminators in a landing craft would be awesome in every sense of the word... maybe 600pt ones are a little easier to swallow

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:48 pm 
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I'm not at all convinced that Termies w LRs in a Landing Craft is worth the premium over just taking Termies (maybe w a Chaplain) in a Thunderhawk, which I think is the proper thing to compare to.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:17 pm 
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it's 50 points difference for 4 land raiders, literally 12.5pts per tank difference is what we're arguing over

old way - 75pts per land raider
NDC proposal - 50pts per land raider
my proposal - 62.5 pts per land raider (effective)

I'm not saying "let's do nothing, they're fine as they are" I'm just advocating for a smaller, easier to swallow change

if everybody is unhappy with the propsal, I'm happy to withdraw it, then the onus is on everyone to prove that 50pt land raiders are not overpowered

how does that sound? by all means test them at 50pts

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:56 pm 
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I don't think everybody is unhappy about the proposal, but we're discussing what is best. Isn't it worth to try the LR:s at 50p for the 12 weeks before you put the suggestion forward?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:01 pm 
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He can just put another suggestion forward after the 12 weeks.

Kyuss, are you PMing these to Steve?

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