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Proposed local and global Space Marine changes

 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:39 pm 
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sorry if I'm not being clear. I'm not thinking it's a bad idea, from gameplay nor fluff. I'm wondering out loud is we're just swishing the mouthwash to the other side, so to speak, and making Devs superfluous. I mean perhaps Devs should get 3 shots but less FF as you say, they're lugging around weapons that while powerful, are a pita. Also they're not 10 man teams either in the fluff, unlike Tacts. Again... heretical thinking out loud here. Let's try it out and see what happens then.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:43 pm 
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I kinda feel that the tac change is unnecessary and is primed to set off a snowball of proposals to "fix" devastators now. I don't see the basis for a 3+ FF on them and they are supposed to be generalist. Aren't there other options to explore here?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:12 pm 
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I think a general points cut for LR as transports makes more sense than the 2 for 125. The reason for the points cut isn't only that upgrades in general are rarely taken, but also that the formation loses flexibility. This is especially true for Terminators taking LR, but also Tacticals, which would only get a 25 point rebate for taking 3 LR.

Now, I don't know that 50 points across the board is the right price, but perhaps 75 for the first and then 50 for each one after that would be fitting. That way it scales with the unit size.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:19 pm 
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In the two games of playtest I've done with 50 points for each LR used as Transport I've had the experience that it makes them worth taking, but not a no-brainer by any means. It still makes a unit of Terminators cost 550, a unit of Tacticals cost 425 and Devastators 350. Solid units, but not the kind you can afford to spam. And I do think it opens up an alternative way of playing SM that is Noob-friendly with very readily accessible models.

I've also tested using LR in groups of three instead of four for the price of 250. I think it works really well, and makes them quite useful. The main downside is that they start competing with the Annihilators, but then again I think that that is a unit that could use some competition.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:56 pm 
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I don’t think a 3+ ff makes devs redundant at all. They’re primary use is in pods where they then sustain on stuff (esp AA) which the tactical ff doesn’t remove that role. Also, a tacc co is already better in assaults than devs (higher number of average hits + higher unit number) so if you’re using devs as assault units rather than tacc cos you’re already doing it wrong ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:19 pm 
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the biggest complaint I see over and over again from new and older players, is that a 'normal' marine army doesn't resemble a battle company, while Devastators see common use in drop pods (at least here in the UK) it's rare to see Assault marines at all, or Tactical Marines in any other capacity other than the blitz-guarding supreme commander bodyguard.... they don't have the teeth to be getting into the face of the enemy unless everything else is going well (in which case you're probably already winning) and frankly aren't much of a scary prospect for determined aspect warriors, ork landa mobs, nid swarms or krieg infantry companies anyway....

They don't step on the toes of Devs as Steve correctly points out above, either thematically or practically, and might open up more ground-pounding mutually-supporting styles of play when people are confident they can actually handle themselves against something other than the odd sentinel or boarboy formation

I'd like it tested is all, to shake things up if nothing else.... if we suddenly see the 'ten tactical formation wall of death' build sweeping tournaments across the globe, we can re-evaluate....

on the 50pt land raiders, that puts them 25 points above razorbacks, for 5cm less speed you get twice the transport, more than twice the survivability and more than twice the firepower, not to mention the increase in FF too

plus, Terminators with 4 land raiders in a landing craft is a brutal beast.... I'd be concerned about making it too much cheaper, my price break proposal stands for now.... go and find the best marine player locally, get him or her to build a list with cheap land raiders and see how it feels being on the receiving end... I plan on getting dptdexys to run it out against me....

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:32 pm 
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Sorry to say something which is more 'meta' but:

Storm Talon, Storm Raven, Storm Hawk etc.

I am a little worried about these models that only exist as fan-ware (If at all!) being made the standard, from the point of view of newcomers wanting to make a list. Vanguard only have a proxy for a Xathan interceptor as far as I know...

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:38 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:15 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
I mean perhaps Devs should get 3 shots but less FF as you say, they're lugging around weapons that while powerful, are a pita. Also they're not 10 man teams either in the fluff, unlike Tacts.


You're wrong there actually Jimmy - a full Dev squad in the 40k game and background is 10, with 4 heavy weapons, so perfectly matching 2 epic Dev stands. A Dev stand should have 2 shots because it carries 2 heavy weapons.

It's the Epic Tac stands that cheat and carry twice as many heavy weapons as the codex astartes allows which should be 1 per 10. I really hate that about the list and when I get round to doing my marines I'm probably going to model 3 extra techmarines with a heavy weapon each onto my Tactical formation's bases just so there are actually enough heavy weapons to match their out of whack stats. Then there might be too many too many marines to technically fit in their transports, damn it, can't win...

So yes I'd very much be behind making Tac stands have 1 shot per 2 like IG as a trade off for the FF3+. It'd correctly differentiate Devs to be the shooting specialists if Tacs only had 3 shots compared to their 8.


There's also a number of SM units that aren't represented in the Epic codex list but people may well still model them and that would probably count as tacticals but justify a high FF if statted - Intercessors, Hellblasters, Assault Centurions and Sternguard Veterans. Imagining these to be abstracted/averaged into Tacticals adds justification for Tacticals to be statted with FF3+ when Chaos Marines stay with 4+.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:45 pm 
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Stormwind wrote:
I am a little worried about these models that only exist as fan-ware (If at all!) being made the standard, from the point of view of newcomers wanting to make a list. Vanguard only have a proxy for a Xathan interceptor as far as I know...

There are easily available SM fighter proxies to buy and I don't see the problem, people can well use a Xathan as a Stormtalon or any of the several SM fighters in sale on Shapeways. It's not like there are any official models on.sale any more. I also agree with Jimmy above.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:58 pm 
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"Terminators with 4 land raiders in a landing craft is a brutal beast...."

And cost 800 points, so they better be! But I very much hesitate to put 550 points of anything in a Landing Craft, since I'm one crit away from losing everything.

I personally think Razorbacks are too expensive, but I think the thing with them is that you buy one or a few and you still retain 30cm speed on the formation + still gets 3 or 2 free Rhinos.

Think that there's a very good reason people don't take LRs generally, and as transports specifially. Lowering the cost with 25 for devastators and tacticals or 50 for terminators won't do much to change that.

edit: Realized i undercounted the Landing Craft + Terminator w Land Raiders combo. That would be 900 points combined that cost a cool 1000 points now. With the rebate, you get a a Warlord + change instead. Without the rebate, you're starting to get into Imperator territory. Don't think that's a fair price at all for something that's actually really brittle.

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:17 pm 
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One of the reasons that people don’t take LR as upgrades is activation count. Not ability/points. A LR here and a LR there, you could have bought a pair of thunderbolts instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:24 pm 
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Mrdiealot wrote:
"Terminators with 4 land raiders in a landing craft is a brutal beast...."

And cost 800 points


Now I may not have all your fancy book learnin' but I'm pretty sure 350 + (4*75) != 800

Quote:
so they better be! But I very much hesitate to put 550 points of anything in a Landing Craft, since I'm one crit away from losing everything.


okay that's your style, but just because *you personally* won't play it that way doesn't mean nobody else will....

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:29 pm 
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Elrik wrote:
One of the reasons that people don’t take LR as upgrades is activation count. Not ability/points. A LR here and a LR there, you could have bought a pair of thunderbolts instead.


true, but with the rather excellent scout formations to pump activation count, Marine armies rarely struggle for activations... the issue is that Land raiders have multiple capabilities that need to be paid for, they have excellent armour, solid shooting and firefight values plus a transport capability.... you get a lot of stuff for the suggested 50pts.... I would say a bit *too* much

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:43 pm 
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Totally agree. They are better than 50 pts. The vindicator is 50 pts... I think the discount for 2 is enough.


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