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New Army Champion, new approach?

 Post subject: Re: New Army Champion, new approach?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:11 am 
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I agree with Kyrt. I painted up a 3k army of WS and played with them a few times but would never bother again. I'd use codex marines or dark angels. Shame that GW missed an opportunity to make this an interesting thematic army and an even bigger shame that it hasn't been widely acknowledged and rectified. Perhaps Kyrt (or someone) could propose a "WS Successor Chapters" list with some more radical WS thematic ideas (dare I say hit and run), but leaving the old list as the GW endorsed and approved relic it is for those people that like it. Maybe one day we can have both approved.

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 Post subject: Re: New Army Champion, new approach?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:08 am 
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Do you have any changes planned for the core SM list Kyus or are you happy with it?

I lost most of my motivation for the Black Templars years ago (perhaps I’ll go back to them eventually) and I never tested the Minotaurs (I don’t know if anyone ever did) and that fanlist might be best left to quietly die unless someone has a burning desire to take it on.

I might be up for testing changes to the core list or Blood Angels or possibly working up a Primaris Marines list (eventually, various other lists higher priority). Given the lesser amount of testers and playtesting these days I would strongly encourage you trying to focus people to playtest one list at a time to approval Kyuss rather than lots of little bits of effort here and there that don’t get there. Pick a list you think is close and want to work on first? Either Blood Angels or Dark Angels sound fine.

Primaris Marines would justify a dedicated list for sure though. They are considerably different tactically and not just larger versions of old marines. Backgroundwise there are whole chapters of pure Primaris Marines (none of the older sort) and regular chapters now incorporate some in their armies. I reckon the best way to do this would be to have a dedicated Primaris Marine list (that could be tested and approved if there was enough interest) and to allow any existing SM list to take Primaris Marine formations as part of its allied 1/3 in friendly games only.
I've thrown together a couple of example profiles that illustrate how different they would be:
Intercessor Marines (Tactical Marine equivalent). 15cm move, 2+ sv, 4+CC, 4+FF. +1 EA in CC. No ranged attack of any kind (they carry only bolter variants and never special or heavy weapons)
Inceptor Marines (closest to Assault Marines, though they specialise in short range shooting) 30cm move 4+ sv 4+CC 2+FF, shooting Twin Assault Bolters 3 x 15cm AP4+. Jump Packs. Note these stats for the Interceptors assume them to be based having 3 on a base (their usual squad size) rather than 5 on a base.

If you read the White Scars background and their Horus Heresy novels WS bikers tactics involved regular hit and run attacks and feigned flight. People have proposed various special rules to accomplish this but it seems unnecessary and just making the core Biker formation 4 strong (for cheaper) rather than 5 would neatly achieve this. Having an 8 strong Biker formation that is much harder to break is utterly wrong for how the WS should fight and makes the list poor and restrictive in game terms. The WS are one of my favourite chapters but I also have no interest in using any current WS list – I’d use a Ravenwing heavy Epic-UK Dark Angels list with ‘counts as’ to better represent them.


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 Post subject: Re: New Army Champion, new approach?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:50 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
Possibly Primaris disucssion should take place in a dedicated thread though rather than sidetracking here.


Agreed. Kyuss you want to peel this part of the conversation off into a new thread? It's good to have but yeah... not here.

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 Post subject: Re: New Army Champion, new approach?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:23 pm 
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There is nothing wrong with a 4 strong bike unit - I guess priced at 175 (same as assault marines) but some people would query the value in having a separate list for such a minor change from codex marines. Some people might also think that 5 bikes for 200 is better value and so stick to using codex marines / DA. I guess it makes them better out of a T-hawk. The issue is that, compared to 40k, the codex marines list is extremely unrestricted and really disproves the assertion that all epicA lists are thematic (biel tan also). As it stands, "new white scars" have to be radical to justify their existence.

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 Post subject: Re: New Army Champion, new approach?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:09 pm 
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I didn't mean that would be the only difference from Codex Ffoley :) 175 for 4 Bikers or Attack Bikers with walker might be fair and would offer some different strengths and weakness.

Other units that would be thematically appropriate and hopefully included would be Scout Bikers, faster 30cm Vindicators (leaving off the dozer blade / walker) and the Land Speeder Tempest (a slightly heavier armed variant the WS invented to support their lightning fast attacks with mobile firepower). Storm Talon instead of Thunderbolt would be appropriate too, as I imagine even more so than other marine's the WS would strike out quickly on their own and not sit around waiting for allied air cover.


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 Post subject: Re: New Army Champion, new approach?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:15 pm 
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Seriously guys we've got a thread for that. Go there; Don't cock this discussion up. viewtopic.php?f=73&t=31897
:tut

When Si goes and fires me as Whitescar AC (please fire me soon ;) ) then we can go off topic elsewhere. Please discuss minutia of my list in the actual fracking list thread.

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 Post subject: Re: New Army Champion, new approach?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:43 pm 
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I defer to GlynGs greater knowledge on the Primaris - look forward to a thread to discuss...


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 Post subject: Re: New Army Champion, new approach?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:44 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
Do you have any changes planned for the core SM list Kyus or are you happy with it?


I have no changes planned, the main codex list works well, and has worked well for years, it's a good yardstick to measure the power level of other lists against, and is perfectly competitive when used sensibly as the EUK stats would suggest

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I lost most of my motivation for the Black Templars years ago (perhaps I’ll go back to them eventually) and I never tested the Minotaurs (I don’t know if anyone ever did) and that fanlist might be best left to quietly die unless someone has a burning desire to take it on.


I think the Black Templars list has legs and I'd like to see someone take it forward, are you willing to continue as AC for it? otherwise I'll advertise for someone to take it over (I seem to recall someone was fanlisting it recently)

Minotaurs I'll take your point, it can sit as a fanlist

Quote:
I might be up for testing changes to the core list or Blood Angels or possibly working up a Primaris Marines list (eventually, various other lists higher priority). Given the lesser amount of testers and playtesting these days I would strongly encourage you trying to focus people to playtest one list at a time to approval Kyuss rather than lots of little bits of effort here and there that don’t get there. Pick a list you think is close and want to work on first? Either Blood Angels or Dark Angels sound fine.


That really is wishful thinking Glyn, I've been involved in development for years now and basically the rule is that people will develop what they want to.... you really can't herd the cats of NetEA, you have to take what you can get, or trade batreps for batreps which I've semi-successfully done with Dave

The alternative is to assemble a 'playtest team' of 5-6 players from 3 groups who will play six games with whatever lists are available, but even that may be beyond my powers....

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Primaris Marines would justify a dedicated list for sure though. They are considerably different tactically and not just larger versions of old marines. Backgroundwise there are whole chapters of pure Primaris Marines (none of the older sort) and regular chapters now incorporate some in their armies. I reckon the best way to do this would be to have a dedicated Primaris Marine list (that could be tested and approved if there was enough interest) and to allow any existing SM list to take Primaris Marine formations as part of its allied 1/3 in friendly games only.
I've thrown together a couple of example profiles that illustrate how different they would be:
Intercessor Marines (Tactical Marine equivalent). 15cm move, 2+ sv, 4+CC, 4+FF. +1 EA in CC. No ranged attack of any kind (they carry only bolter variants and never special or heavy weapons)
Inceptor Marines (closest to Assault Marines, though they specialise in short range shooting) 30cm move 4+ sv 4+CC 2+FF, shooting Twin Assault Bolters 3 x 15cm AP4+. Jump Packs. Note these stats for the Interceptors assume them to be based having 3 on a base (their usual squad size) rather than 5 on a base.


I'm really not interested in putting a primaris marine list together for NetEA, mostly because I predict that in the next 2-3 years they will simply supersede the existing codex marines and will be the new standard, I'm thinking that they should either sit as a fanlist or be dumped into the kitchen sink list

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If you read the White Scars background and their Horus Heresy novels WS bikers tactics involved regular hit and run attacks and feigned flight. People have proposed various special rules to accomplish this but it seems unnecessary and just making the core Biker formation 4 strong (for cheaper) rather than 5 would neatly achieve this. Having an 8 strong Biker formation that is much harder to break is utterly wrong for how the WS should fight and makes the list poor and restrictive in game terms. The WS are one of my favourite chapters but I also have no interest in using any current WS list – I’d use a Ravenwing heavy Epic-UK Dark Angels list with ‘counts as’ to better represent them.


Jimmy is developing the new White Scars list and I've got no intention of letting him off the hook with it either, I'd suggest everyone talking White Scars go and harass him in the relevant thread

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 Post subject: Re: New Army Champion, new approach?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:05 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
I think the Black Templars list has legs and I'd like to see someone take it forward, are you willing to continue as AC for it? otherwise I'll advertise for someone to take it over (I seem to recall someone was fanlisting it recently)


I've haven't been active with it for a long time (moving between a few different countries was part of that) but I've given it some thought and looked back over the list and I'm feeling more inspired and I would like to stay AC for it. I think it offers a different slant on a marine list and a similar but different approach to the Epic-UK Templars.

I'm still happy with the list at it is and would just like if to be tested more. I will test it more myself in the medium term, though my short term modeling and gaming focus is on tyranids and a titan legion and if I do some marine games soon it'll be to test the WS. Nearly all my epic gaming this year had been at tournaments too, which limits my potential to playtest trial lists but I plan to get the occasional game in online or with local-ish opponents such as Reeder.


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