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White Scars Trial List -2017

 Post subject: Re: White Scars Trial List -2017
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Is there any appeal or justification in considering the +4 bikes an upgrade with more wider availability.
Sounds cool but probably neither fluffy nor particulalry useful

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars Trial List -2017
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:28 pm 
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So in order:
We've been over popcorn bikers repeatedly. Show some batreps where they just don't end up being tons of broken 1 unit formations laying around and we'll talk. Some subset of of the existing hit and run rule would actually model hit and run better than 4 strong bikers that get hacked down. A full speed consolidate move, for instance is hit and run. Breaking isn't; That's getting your ass handed to you. Full stop.

It's a first strike mechanic. They have a similar usr in 28mm. Something to kick around way down the line if they need a ummmph.

LS Tempests can enter via planetfall. That's their entire schtick when the White Scars invented them in m38. They can do a reliable high altitude insertion, albeit one way, which is why they don't work as an AC,. despite their larger size, wings, and faster speed. Also, WHITESCARS INVENTED THEM. Absolute silliness they don't have them in the WS list ;D

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars Trial List -2017
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:39 pm 
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So back on track. Dave has graciously put a bat rep for WS with speedy vindis. As expected, they didn't matter one way or another in practice. That's actually not a terrible finding as he felt he could take them but it wasn't that big a deal for his opponent and didn't spin the game out of control. If we can grab a couple more of these we're in good shape just finding this minor tweak up for approval and get onto more important ones, like Storm Talons (which again is a totes no-brainer).

In parallel, GlynG, i really would love you to take the base list out (with or without walker-less vindis-your call) with 4 strong biker spam. Let's see if it's a boner killer for the opponent or not. Everyone we've talked to has done this when asked:


please prove them wrong-we like being proved wrong

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars Trial List -2017
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:29 pm 
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This is Jimmy's list and he should call it how he sees it but I have to say that an army of 4-strong bike formations is just going to be horrible to use and face, much like the 10 scouts and warlord titan, it will have very little hitting power and relies on maintaining an activation and mobility advantage to contest objectives and annoy the opponent, its basically the marine version of baran siegers

By all means play a few test games and prove me wrong, but if you don't have the time or are unwilling then say so and let's move on....

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars Trial List -2017
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:11 pm 
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I don't feel a strong need for 4 bikes, mostly I want to be able to take them cheaply (like codex), in more variation and in more roles that are otherwise filled by non bike units (eg scouts). I don't think there's a big difference between 4 and 5 so long as they are priced well vs scouts (currently WS bikes are overpriced).

I don't see a balance argument against them though - as you say, scouts are already the unit of choice if someone wants to spam cheap formations and bikes will be weaker (fewer) and more expensive so this is a red herring. By that logic assaults should be removed from the codex list, but nobody thinks there is an issue. A 4 or 5 strong formation just needs to fill a supporting role, I can't see me using ore than 2.

5 for 200 and 8 for 325 would do me.

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars Trial List -2017
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Here's a couple a variations on Whitescars featuring vindis. If anyone wants to use them as a general basis (customize as needed) for some sanity checks, it would be glorious.

http://traitor-legion.appspot.com/choos ... x5~517~517

http://traitor-legion.appspot.com/choos ... 7~504~28x5

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars Trial List -2017
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:49 am 
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I've played 15+ games of epic so far this year but all bar 1 have been at tournaments so I haven't had much opportunity to playtest. I might have an online game or two happening some time though and might see if my opponents are willing to test against a modified WS list with the 4 strong bikers.

There seems to be some misunderstanding of what I'm suggesting with these smaller formation bikers and why. I don't know how familiar you guys are with the WS background but if you read the more recent BL books focusing on them e.g. Scars (which I'd recommend incidentally as it's one of the best of the HH novels I've cherry picked to read) a key tactic they use (both in space and ground battles) is that of feigned retreat. They'll deliberately appear disorganised and weak and flee away to pull their enemies out of position before turning and striking at enemy weak points with more precision and coordination at this than other marines. It's worth mentioning such feigned retreat was a tactic often used by the real world Mongol horse men, who the WS are partly inspired by. Also that though these retreats are feigned it's a challenging tactic and can sometimes go wrong and become a real retreat.

I recognise that 4 strong biker formations would break and flee more but this is a deliberate and appropriate thing not a bug. SM are good at rallying and with their speed and assault range WS bikers could flee to positions outside of 30cm of the enemy but within 35cm so as to be able to rally on a 3+ and assault next turn. Individual biker formations would be less strong but there would be more of them on the table and they'd just have to work together and coordinate their strikes more - again fitting WS background.

Considering WS are known for retreating tactics having one of the two differentiators between epic WS bikers and codex bikers being larger formation sizes so WS bikers flee much less often than normal is utterly inappropriate for their background and 40k rules (this mistake by the designers of the Epic list has been around for a long time but needs to be ditched for the good of the list). I don't feel adopting the Eldar hit and run rule would be appropriate, as this would just allow Attack Bikes to pop in and out of cover to shoot and this kind of sneaky hiding doesn't seem fitting. Giving WS bikers an up to full move consolidation move is a boost for them, but one only applying to where they've won a combat rather than representing their feigned retreat at all.

It depends on what elements from the WS background and 40k rules we choose to represent in their epic rules and which we acknowledge but leave out on our scale. We cover the superior riding skills the WS are known for with walker but don't bother representing the faster bikes they have in their 40k rules or their greater skill at shooting on the move. As an aside if we were to add a new WS special rule to the list a renamed variant of the Dark Eldar fleet of foot special rule (can FF support or be crossfired to when marching) could be appropriate - though definitely applying only to bikes and attack bikes in the list rather than everything. They'd be faster moving and better in attacking on the move then.

I think representing feigned retreat tactics simply by making the formation 4 strong is a simple neat idea worth trying out. 175 point 4 biker formations would allow a slightly higher activation count biker force but the codex list can be maxed out to an even higher activation count at present than that with Scout formations. I'm also proposing removing foot Scouts from the list and replacing them with more thematically appropriate Scout Bikers along with Storm Talons instead of Thunderbolts - both of which would cost 25 points more each and so counteract the effect of the cheaper bikes anyway.

jimmyzimms wrote:
LS Tempests can enter via planetfall. That's their entire schtick when the White Scars invented them in m38. They can do a reliable high altitude insertion, albeit one way, which is why they don't work as an AC,. despite their larger size, wings, and faster speed. Also, WHITESCARS INVENTED THEM. Absolute silliness they don't have them in the WS list ;D


I agree Land Speeder Tempests should be in the list! You've misremembered their background and are otherwise wrong about them - they're designed to provide fast moving fire support but they're no more worthy of having planetfall than any other Land Speeder. They have an extra engine but this is balanced out by the additional weight of the armour and they are no faster than other Land Speeders - both are mentioned in the FW IA books to have the same max speed of 350km/hr. In 40k ALL Land Speeders types can deep strike but this doesn't translate to epic's planetfall, it's more of a controlled glide from high than an extremely fast fall only slowed at the end which justifies the AA avoiding of planetfall. I know epic Raven Guard list has planetfalling Land Speeders but I've always thought this unjustifiable from a background perspective and in any case this should stay part of that list's special stuff rather than being used elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: White Scars Trial List -2017
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:01 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
A full speed consolidate move, for instance is hit and run. Breaking isn't; That's getting your ass handed to you. Full stop.

I also don't see that 'losing a lot' is the same as 'feigning losing a lot'. For me this is much better represented by allowing them to better reposition when they win (if at all).

Also I have read the white scars books, and would not say it is as defining feature as you are making out. They basically did it in space when the enemy didn't realise how fast the ships were. For instance in brotherhood of the storm they just go as fast as they possibly can into the enemy, keep going without stopping and refuse to retreat until the enemy is beaten. By contrast, a feature common to those books is the use of large groups of bikes... So it is not wrong to represent that.

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars Trial List -2017
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:49 pm 
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I played 5 league games last year with this WS list

> SPACESHIP [200]> Strike Cruiser
> THUNDERHAWK [200]> 1 Thunderhawk gunship
> ASSAULT [275]> 4 Assault units, Supreme Commander
> ASSAULT [175]> 4 Assault units
> BIKE [425]> 5 Bikes, 3 Attack Bikes, Chaplain
>TACTICAL [300]> 6 Tactical units plus Transport
> TACTICAL [300]> 6 Tactical units plus Transport
>PREDATORS [325]> 2 x Predator Destructors, 2 x Predator Annihilators, Hunter
>WHIRLWIND [300]> 4 Whirlwinds
> LAND SPEEDER [200]> 5 Land Speeder
> SCOUT [150]> 4 Scouts plus Transport
> THUNDERBOLTS [150]> 2 Thunderbolt Fighters

WS drop pod rule was annoying as had to drop-pod both or neither tacticals (I didn't realise when I made the list). I did drop-pod the tacticals in a 3 games with varying success (as you'd expect). I normally put the bikes [BTS] in the THawk and they did ok ground assaulting and then speeding off to hide for rest of game after the inevitable reprisals. 375 point felt very overpriced for them. Walker skill didn't make much difference.

Please don't take the fact that I chose to use this woeful GW codex in a semi competetive environment as an endorsement of it. I did it to do something a bit different from the usual. I wouldn't again.

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 Post subject: Re: White Scars Trial List -2017
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:54 pm 
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very helpful ffoley! Yes the all or nothing drop pod is dumb and does nothing for theme. The entire point should be that WS marines cannot drop transport to garrison up field and must take transport unless they pod. Once we're over the immediate hump the new units and redacted transport rule will be next.

jimmyzimms wrote:
In parallel, GlynG, i really would love you to take the base list out (with or without walker-less vindis-your call) with 4 strong biker spam. Let's see if it's a boner killer for the opponent or not.
...
please prove them wrong-we like being proved wrong

GlynG, test it or let it go, mate. I'm done with the endless circular conversation.

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