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Imperial Fists

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:33 am 
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You actually can. My minotaurs show up pretending to be all sorts of other chapters ;D
Hell, just Sunday they were pretending to be some Yellow gits.

PS I still owe you that batrep Simon!!

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:36 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
You actually can. My minotaurs show up pretending to be all sorts of other chapters ;D
Hell, just Sunday they were pretending to be some Yellow gits.

PS I still owe you that batrep Simon!!


Sure, I know :) I am looking inside my shoebox full of bright red Blood Angels right now, though, and wishing they were all bright yellow and I had a bunch of Thunderfire Cannon models and not quite so many assault marines, etc etc :) I'd love a big mob of pale gray Space Wolves and their Pack Mentality, too. But, yes, the ability to play many different lists with the same models with only slight tweaking is very nice :)

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:02 pm 
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I'm glad you like the list, playtests always appreciated! ;)

Regarding the centurions/sanguinary guard discussion, the way I personally see it is that although these lists typify the fighting approach of a particular chapter, they are typically generic enough to be fielded as a different one, so salamanders or raven guard or indeed any codex chapter may find themselves defending in a siege and can use the IF list to get the cool siege toys, as most chapters have centurions and maybe an achilles or two then it can just about be justified

Blood angels are a little different in that they have quite a few specialist chapter-only fomations (death company, baal preds, sanguinary guard) which only they and their successors use.... it would be much harder for me to justify my imperial fists aaying they're fighting 'blood angels style' and put a bunch of blood angels only units down, painted yellow

that's why I think centurions are okay to add but Sanguinary guard are a little too granular for my tastes :D

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:27 pm 
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Incidentally there's a Blood Angels successor chapter in yellow you could take them to be for the battle (The Lamenters).


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:21 pm 
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Had a game tonight against Steve54's tau, managed a 2-0 win (DTF and TSNP)

Batrep and thoughts to follow over the weekend :D

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:40 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
I didn't put them in as upgrades as I feel that they're not really transports, and the other land raider variants were better in that role

I'd prefer to see them available for infantry formations, they have a transport capacity in 40k even if it's only a single stand in Epic. They'd seem pretty fitting as at least a Devestator transport to me and I'd take them for Tacticals too if they were available. In either case I'd add one over other Land Raider choices. One could garrison forward with infantry or otherwise their transport capacity of 1 means they don't reduce the number of Rhinos you get.

kyussinchains wrote:
regarding the Achilles, it is probably a bit better than a land raider, however I think land raiders are a little bit expensive, coming in at a massive 81.25 points per tank in a standard formation.... I'd like them tested as a straight swap at the moment, if everyone finds them to be significantly better than regular land raiders, then we can look into upgrades, 25 points each is very expensive, I would think twice about paying over 100 points for a single AV, good as it is

I use a Land Raider formation a lot, probably in around half my games, and I reckon they are worth it at 325 (I know the Epic-UK ones are slightly more expensive). With an attached Hunter they make a tough BTS that draws and soaks up fire from the many other vehicles in my army.

Achilles look a fair bit better again, I really do think they are worth +25 over Land Raiders. Their weapons and FF are very powerful! They have good specialised anti-infantry fire power at long-ish range and are absolutely deadly at close range and in FF. To illustrate their potential with a couple of scenarios:

Scenario 1: there are enemy infantry deployed garrisoned forward close to the mid table in a building on overwatch. To attack them first turn most SM formations would need to move forward to attack them (potentially getting overwatched) and the -1 for cover and 4+ cover save would limit kills. With a 60cm range the Achilles could be deployed in a position within range at the start and could sustain fire using ignore cover shells with their Thunderfires, on average hitting 5.33 of the enemy infantry.

Scenario 2: put onto overwatch a formation of Achilles would make an excellent blitz guard (and perhaps BTS) against CC attackers like Terminators, Tyranids or Orks. At 15cm their overwatch is enough to kill on average 3 teleporting Terminators and leave the surviving one with 7 blast markers. If air assaulted by an Ork Warband in a Landa the overwatch would on average kill 6.6 of the infantry.

With 8 x 15cm 4+ MW attacks and a FF4+ MW they would be a threat to enemy titans or armour too, doubled up shooting then providing 2 MW FF support fire hits on average for another unit or units to assault it (then sustained firing first thing next turn if the titan or whatever were still there).


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:05 am 
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I have some thoughts on the Achilles, will add them to my batrep when I get time to post it

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:31 pm 
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Batrep added

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:00 pm 
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A small tip. Maybe adjust the size of the Bastion base size? 10x10 is a fairly large area to replace an objective. Perhaps a 50- 60mm circle/square or the like...? I know it doesn't sound quite right but given building sizes in Epic are abstracted too, it's not a huge leap.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:12 pm 
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Yeah I'll update it later today, probably with a size range, I was trying to figure out how big the castellum would be....

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:29 pm 
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List of proposed changes for v0.2: as far as I know there have only been two playtests with the list so far (feel free to write yours up any time Jimmy... no rush mate... ;)) but there were a couple of glaring issues I feel, this post largely echoes my thoughts in the batrep but I want to keep discussion here for now

Fellblade - I want to drop it to DC3, I think its so hard to break at DC4 that it's disheartening to face, had Steve bought his Hero cruiser however, it probably would have bought it on T1, possibly before getting a chance to move... same story with deathstrikes.... it's a juicy target for armies with pinpoint attacks, but a real pain for armies without them.... I think dropping it to 325 and making it unlimited (and part of the war engines section) will prevent spam, but give you the option of taking 2 for redundancy

Achilles will be a 25pt upgrade over land raider and will gain invulnerable save, how do people feel about limiting them to 2 per LR formation?

Scouts - how do people feel about swapping sniper for infiltrate? I'm tempted to just keep then as codex scouts at 150pts

Bastion, in v0.2 I want to trial it as a stand alone war engine similar to nid hive nest, right now it's clunky and inelegant and I dont want to use it again

Finally I want to add Hyperios and tarantulas back in.... thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:49 pm 
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On the Fellblade, I think give it a few more batreps versus things that can smash it i.e the Space Craft, a Titan etc. 1-2 batreps do not formulate a good picture really, especially since one of the batreps was vs Tau who are not that great at disabling RA targets. If it's tough put up the points first. I think perhaps keeping it to 0-1 rather than allowing 2 might be fair too as they are oooooold and rarity should be the guide here.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:30 am 
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Looking at the Fellblade's 40k stats I would agree that TK as Fattdex had it is excessive and not representative. IMO it probably deserves to be a MW and it's good at killing both infantry and vehicles but that would be plenty. The Fellblade should be 0-1 not for gameplay reasons, but the extreme rarity in the background. Only 'a few' chapters still have access to ancient relic Fellblade(s) by the 41st millenium and likely not many. Other rare units like Deathstrikes or Death Company are 0-1 in epic and the Fellblade really should be. It's 0-1 in a 40k army, whereas other not as rare tanks like the Achilles aren't limited. I would rather see it tested more with the main gun dropped to a MW before dropping the DC to 3. Requiring 8 blast markers to break isn't that bad in a SM list. It's in the same ball park as a cheaper Land Raider formation for toughness and I think the lower firepower, possibility to kill outright with a critical, vulnerability to multi-TK hits and the lack of thick rear armour compensates (crossfire it!) for the 4DC WE ATSKNF hardness to break.

No to inventing new stats for sniper scouts - sniper scouts exist in all SM lists already, they're scout stands with the sniper upgrade. Having IF sniper scouts work differently than codex sniper scouts would be odd. Admittedly the sniper scout upgrade is overpriced at +25 for 1 but the whole formation for 50 extra isn't so bad. I'd suggest keeping it and if it makes you want to take them less just take it as a downside for some of the other pluses in the list.

I'd try the Achilles at +25 for the moment and see how that goes and if you still find it a problem make it 0-2 per formation. Up to you though.

You commented in the battle report thread you thought Thunderfires powerful and I agree, though they're easy to kill too. Do you think 250 is a fair cost for them or should they cost 275?

Fine with Tarantulas if you like. Hyperios, as in the AA version of the Whirlwind? I thought we'd generally agreed that was similar enough to the Hunter to just count as a Hunter. You might mean the Land Raider Helios instead? That's the one with the Whirlwind launcher on top instead of the Heavy Bolters. I'd be in favour of adding this as it's fits with the siege theme, probably at +25 over a normal LR too.

Good change on the Bastion, I'd spotted problems with it too but hadn't got round to pointing them out yet. Another problem was that being a movement 0 unit the old one would have allowed anything in it's formation to garrison, including Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Land Raiders, ect. Make it a 0cm WE as then it can garrison and if a units want to garrison in it they can by leaving their Rhinos behind when deploying. 60 or 80cm would be a better size IMO and I'd prefer the option of either a round base rather than square, 100 is a bit much.

I've raised my concerns about the WE Marauder Bomber being too cheap and suggested it should be costed at 175. They're already borderline too cheap in the Krieg list and are worth more here due to the higher strategy and other units. To illustrate, imagine facing the following rather extreme 'Bombs Away!' list:
4 x formations of Predator Annihilators + Hunter (325 each)
6 x Marauder Bomber (150 each)
10 activations for 2,200 points so far, with 800 points left so spent as desired.
With 4 (or more) Hunters on the ground enemy interceptors would have multiple long range AA attacks come at them and be quickly taken down if they tried to fly through. You'd then be able to bomb away with the 6 bomber formations freely. Worth fixing to


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:32 am 
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I think he meant hyperios platforms, rather than the tank, going along with tarantulas.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:13 am 
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Tarantulas bring a few messy decisions with them (such as which version you're adapting), but would fit with a defensive or offensive siege list IMO. Then again, I think they fit with pretty much everything Space Marine. :P

If you do decide to include them, the two major decisions are whether they'll be mobile and whether they should be LV or Infantry.

I lean infantry, for a variety of reasons:
1) Artillery in 40K is usually INF in Epic.
2) Tarantulas are quite small - man-sized, basically.
3) Makes it easier to put them in cover, which seems like the sort of thing Tarantulas would be perfect for.
4) It makes them slightly more valuable, which makes them less popcorny.

I also lean mobile:
1) It makes them more valuable, which makes them less popcorny.
2) The original Epic version was mobile, and the Horus Heresy versions are mobile. Mobility makes sense, frankly (it's not like it's HARD to make something minimally mobile. Witness the Thunderfire).
3) In the context of Epic, I think it's a more accurate reflection of how they'd be used. Abstracted transport, basically.
4) A 5cm move at least makes it practical to put them on a Thunderhawk (which is a common deployment method in the fluff). I went with 10, mind, but a minimal move makes them a LOT more usable.

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