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Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents

 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:32 pm 
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I should add that anything with the chapter master + the SG out in force should automatically be BTS for the list then, points be damned.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:41 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
I should add that anything with the chapter master + the SG out in force should automatically be BTS for the list then, points be damned.


I agree with this. If the death or maiming of Dante did not break the Blood Angels' spirit, I don't know what would.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:46 pm 
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IIRC they quit the entire Armageddon warzone when he died. That's pretty BTS'd if you ask me ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:34 pm 
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Huh? Since when did Dante die?

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:38 pm 
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Actually you're right. Tycho died.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:35 am 
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Or just do some special rules that aren't formally part of the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:20 am 
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I'm strongly in favour of adding a separate 0-1 6 strong Sanguinary Guard formation to the list, with a mandatory supreme commander for around 500 points. They would be powerful, but not very tough for their cost. It would also make it nearly always the BTS without the need for a special rule since the list lacks titans.

kyussinchains wrote:
we don't give any other chapters any special troops to represent the sternguard or vanguard guys, or even the 1st company vets in power armour...

For reference Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans ARE the 1st company veterans in power armour (non Terminator armoured veterans are organised into one of these two types). Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans normally operate in small units attached to formations in the battle companies and Sternguard are very well enough represented by a tactical stand and Vanguard very well enough represented by an assault stand.

The bodyguard of the master of the chapter – normally called Honour Guard, Sanguinary Guard for Blood Angels – are different though. They're even more veteran, experienced and powerful with superior artificer armour and every model carrying power weapons (rather than the occasional one like other marines or veterans).
kyussinchains wrote:
I have no problem with the proposed stats, and they should probably be their own formation

however,...wonders whether they should be in the list at all... if you'd painstakingly converted or sculpted your own models, then they would work perfectly well as death company or even terminator proxies

Sanguinary Guard counting as Terminators really doesn't work – they're should be fast jump-packers with weaker armour.

Death Company Assault Marines are closer but distinctly under-armed without a MW, as all Sanguinary Guard are armed with master crafted power weapons. Anyway, if you were fielding a Sanguinary Guard stand with chapter master Dante you would expect/want him to be a supreme commander (he's the oldest living space marine at 1,300ish so experienced at command), but it's not possible to give Death Company the supreme commander upgrade (they come including a chaplain instead as standard).
Dobbsy wrote:
By far the biggest argument to the negative for me is if we include these guys, where does it stop with fluff-based veteran types for other lists? I'm not keen on hearing [whiney voice]"Oh, but the BA have Sanguinary Guard..."[/whiney voice off] every time someone wants to adjust/create a list.

I really don't think would be an issue. Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans are fine just counting as Tactical and Assault Marines (I plan to paint up a stand of each to be these), any difference on an epic scale is negligible. As to the only other unit of this sort then - Honour Guard - these aren't really an issue either, as chapters normally have only a handful of them in the entire chapter - therefore represented in epic by the other marines on a supreme commander's stand. The only two chapters that are known to have more (around 30) are the Blood Angels and the Ultramarines.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:11 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
I'm strongly in favour of adding a separate 0-1 6 strong Sanguinary Guard formation to the list, with a mandatory supreme commander for around 500 points. They would be powerful, but not very tough for their cost. It would also make it nearly always the BTS without the need for a special rule since the list lacks titans.

At that price I'm not sure people will bother as I would imagine they price themselves out of people's lists which begs the question - should we bother?

I'm also wary of having 6x units in a formation with those stats and fearless and frenzied. I could see 4 units being more price amenable but carrying the downside of being weaker which would be fairer to opposition players.

Still, it would need to be tested at 6 to work out if it was too powerful.

GlynG wrote:
As to the only other unit of this sort then - Honour Guard - these aren't really an issue either, as chapters normally have only a handful of them in the entire chapter - therefore represented in epic by the other marines on a supreme commander's stand. The only two chapters that are known to have more (around 30) are the Blood Angels and the Ultramarines.

So then you don't foresee people calling for the Codex list to have this unit type...? I do :D


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:47 pm 
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Someone could write an Ultramarines arnmy list with Chapter Tactics :D

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:17 pm 
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I think the sanguinary guard would be a great addition fluff wise, and loved using the models in 40k, but I think the stats posted here are a little too good. How many units get 3+ armour save in epic? Veteran dreadnought? Titans? There actually less tough and have less attacks than DC in 40k once you take feel no pain and chaplain bonuses into consideration.
I do think veterans in all SM lists would be a good idea, as they've been a big part of 40k since 4th ed, but I guess that's for another thread...

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:37 pm 
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Mark W wrote:
I think the sanguinary guard would be a great addition fluff wise, and loved using the models in 40k, but I think the stats posted here are a little too good. How many units get 3+ armour save in epic? Veteran dreadnought? Titans? There actually less tough and have less attacks than DC in 40k once you take feel no pain and chaplain bonuses into consideration.


Plague marines?

I feel like if we're talking about abstraction and not really differentiating between only slightly different units in the lists, then why do Plague Marines have a separate entry from Chaos Space Marines? Hey, couldn't you just paint your Chaos Marines nurgly and have them "count as" Plague Marines?

No, right? Because they are a different and unique unit, not only fluff-wise but rules-wise. They are tough troops designed to camp an objective and be hard to root out. They have a separate and unique role, hence the unique entry in the list.

Why differentiate between Plague Marines and Thousand Sons?

I'm not saying this to be flippant or rude, only to illustrate my point. Sanguinary Guard are very arguably far more different from standard Assault Marines than Plague Marines are from Chaos Marines.

I do, however, agree that a formation of four "feels" more appropriate. But six would make sense, too.

To address your point about Death Company - that's actually not entirely correct. With a banner, Sanguinary Guard can have nearly as many attacks as DC. Furthermore, every single Sanguinary Guard is packing a two-handed master-crafted power weapon. Also, as you know, a 3+ with FNP is different from a 2+ without FNP. It's not about as tough or not as - it's differently tough (since different things negate 2+ or FNP, respectively). Comparing SG to DC is really comparing apples to oranges.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:20 pm 
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Xenocidal Maniac wrote:

Plague marines?

I feel like if we're talking about abstraction and not really differentiating between only slightly different units in the lists, then why do Plague Marines have a separate entry from Chaos Space Marines? Hey, couldn't you just paint your Chaos Marines nurgly and have them "count as" Plague Marines?


actually that's exactly what you have to do, given that there aren't any plague marine miniatures ;)

in the context of the list though, plague marines aren't an nth variant of troops, AFAIK death guard have Terminators, havocs and plague marines, all do a distinct job in the army

Playing Devil's advocate here, I think the argument being made is that Sanguinary guard are very good assault troops, and assault troops are something blood angels already have two flavours of, not including terminators

I think the proposed stats and pricings are making them much more of a fluff choice than a gameplay one, as they seem to be very expensive and costed as such that they don't cause any balance issues, now my issue is that if you're willing to put a sub-optimal troop choice into a list just so you can use it, why not just use the 'counts as' rule and use them as assault marines/terminators/death company?

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:08 pm 
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So, if we are talking about numbers -is there any rule, that suggests, how much real life guys are presented by 1 epic unit?

What if GW creates new fluff with the next 40k edition -as happened many times before? Sanguinary guard is nice, but leave them represented by the Supreme Commander unit. If you want to use them, create house-rules, but try to keep the game as simple as possible!

Next to termies and 6+2 Assault marines, do you really need ANOTHER CC unit? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:51 am 
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Thinking about this some more, I could actually see the SG/SC formation as the stand in for a Scout Titan option - price-wise and hitting power-wise. So my thoughts about pricing them out isn't entirely true.

Quote:
why not just use the 'counts as' rule and use them as assault marines/terminators/death company?

Of course the argument to this is they would be a separate fast moving, MW-toting Supreme Commander formation which none of the above options allow all in the same stat.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:32 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
I think the proposed stats and pricings are making them much more of a fluff choice than a gameplay one, as they seem to be very expensive and costed as such that they don't cause any balance issues, now my issue is that if you're willing to put a sub-optimal troop choice into a list just so you can use it

They shouldn't be intended to be a sub-optimal choice and prices are just initial guesses which can be discussed and changed and then tested and adjusted as needed. My thoughts are somewhere between 450 and 500 is a reasonable start for 6 including a supreme commander, would you think less for them?


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