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NetEA Dark Angels (v1.86)

 Post subject: NetEA Dark Angels (v1.86)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:15 pm 
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Hello everybody,

I've recently taken over as the Dark Angels AC from Mard, and have spent the last several days tweaking his latest version somewhat. He's done an excellent job capturing the spirit of the list.

I've tried to stay as close to the fluff as possible, and looked at the stats in other lists as much as I can. I've also had a look at what's available in terms of Proxies.

One thing I've avoided is the Slow Fire rule. This rule is OK on WE, but in a list with this much plasma it just gets out of hand. The race to actually fire off Slow Fire weapons in round 1 (so that you can fire again in turn 3) promotes a kind of play that I find somewhat neurotic.

There are too many differences to list really, but the general philosophy has been the same: The Dark Angels army is a lot more siloed and rigid than the Codex Astartes list, but has access to some pretty interesting gear once you start investing in one of the branches.

The unique Dark Angels victory condition is still there, but now replaces the BTS goal instead of the Blitz.

Another thing I've tried to keep in mind is the trade-off between the flexibility of the basic units, and how that relates to what upgrades cost. The loss of Teleport is being compensated for when buying transports for example.

Some units that don't see much use in the Codex List should hopefully be much more interesting in the Dark Angles, and some units that see heavy use in the Codex list are not present at all... We'll see how that works out.

Finally, I think it should be possible to build some pretty interesting themed lists with the structure the list currently has.

All feedback is welcome. Hopefully I (and others!) will be able to get a playable version of it to the table Soon(tm).

Update 15/2 v1.52

Replaced the "mildly" OP 4x Inspiring (oops) on the Deathwing Knights with an integrated Interrogator Chaplain instead.

Deleted line in document that was left over from v1.4

Update 15/2 v1.6

-> Grand Master Mania: Putting a Grand Master in a specific section now allows for taking more of it. Should make it easier to make themed lists that are not totally rigid. Putting a Grand Master in the Ironwing branch also lets you buy an extra Relic!

-> Sniper Scouts 25p more
-> LS Venegance 25p less
-> Predators can have Commander
-> Relic Deimos 25p less
-> Dark Angels Razorbacks 5p more.

Update 17/2 v1.66

Hot on the heels of the previous update... Is another update.

-> Amended the Teleport Homer rule to state "within 15cm" instead of "completely within 15cm".
-> No more Land Raider Crusader in the list.
-> Only the Deathwing Tacticals can take Grand Master and Land Raiders. The Land Raider Transport option now cost 25p more.
-> Deathwing Cyclones no longer have Thick Rear Armour
-> Deathwing Dreads lost their Invulnerable and got 3+ CC instead.
-> The Ironwing Relics are now called the Dreadwing Relics instead.
-> Land Speeder Venegance got a Heavy Bolter instead of the Assault cannon, and got a Plasma Storm Battery with MW4+ instead of the MW5+ Heavy Plasma Cannon. Cost 25 points more.
-> Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer got 5+ FF.
-> Deimos Relics 25 points less, have Heavy Conversion Beamer as standard. May upgrade to Plasma Destructor for 25 points.
-> Fellglaive 25 points less
-> Ironwing Predators and Ironwing Siege Breachers can no longer take the Hunter upgrade.

Update 15/3 v1.7

Been a month since the last update, but that doesn't mean things have been standing still. Have been waiting for the input from the proposed rules playtest (which dropped today) before I posted anything. All of that is now incorporated into v1.7. Have also got around to actually playtesting the list in Tabletop Simulator (TS), where I'm this -><- close to being able to release a module dedicated to NetEA Dark Angels, with everything (!) included, and a bunch of custom models to boot.

Which is exactly as amazing as it sounds like, if you know about TS and EA. And if you have no idea what TS is, and why you should play EA with it, you owe it to yourself to have a go and check it out.

What's in v1.7 then?

-> Completely new structure, divided in two (down from four) between Dark Angels and Ravenwing / Deathwing formations. No more Ironwing stuff. Dreadwing Relics still restricted, but less so.
-> Stalkers are in, two for 75 points.
-> Mortis Dreads have AA6+
-> Land Speeder Typhoon are out, Tornado upgrade to Venegance for 15p
-> Venegance have AP4+/AT4+ at 30cm + Hvy Bolter, and 4+ FF
-> Deathwing Dreads have normal stats (AC + PF) + Deathwing. 5 for 325.
-> Dark Angels Razorback are 30 points each
-> Fellglaive is 350 points each, but can be bought in pairs (650 for 2)
-> Cyclone Termies have 3 shots each.
-> Relic Deimos +25 points. Deimos Vindicators have 30cm move (but not walker)
-> Predator Destructors have the trial stats of two shots on the Autocannon. 4 for 250.
-> Whirlwinds +25 points[/size]

Update 15/3 v1.8

A discussion recently around the potential uses of the Landing Craft led me to wonder whether there's any way to make teleport a more interesting option as compared to bussing stuff around in T-Hawks and L-Craft.

For this reason, in 1.8 I'll be trying a new alternative teleport option that is tied to having a space craft. Basically, you can teleport onto the battlefield straight after stuff has done planetfall, but can only be placed within range of a teleport homer.

Other stuff in 1.8:

-> The Landing Craft has been replaced with Thunderhawk Transports (works pretty much exactly the same as those in E-UK Black Templars, except the minimum size is 2 and maximum size is 3)
-> The "Tacticals" upgrade to the LRs cost 25 points less
-> Deathwing LRs gets Invulnerable Save (it's in their fluff), but the upgrade they're part of cost 25 points more
-> Ravenwing Venegance gets an Assault Cannon instead of their Heavy Bolter
-> A test of new stats for the Nephilim and the Dark Talon
-> LR Ares gets 5+ in CC
-> Ravenwing Bikes lost the Teleport Homer special rule.

Post NDC update 21/6 v1.85

Now that the NDC votes are in, I thought I'd update the list to reflect that, plus some other changes that has been in the pipeline for a while.
-> Predators lost the extra attack on the autocannon, but are now 6 for 300 instead.
-> Cyclone Terminators now have 2 x AP4+/AT5+ instead of the 3 x AP5+/AT6+ they had before.
-> The Glaive is the same as in Alpha Legion. 15cm move, 3+ FF. Costs 300 points for 1. Now possible to add an additional 2 for 250pts each.
-> Thunderhawk Transports have two twin heavy bolter attacks on left and right arcs.
-> Predator Executioner can now only have Plasma Destructor, no more conversion beamer option.

Update 22/6 v1.86

Had some second thoughts about the transporter, as the defensive AA just becomes way too much. Instead of 2 x Twin Heavy Bolters they now have one Quad Heavy Bolter (AP3+/AA5+) on either side. Price lowered to 250, 100 for upgrade (like in scions of iron).

Army Forge builder for 1.86 can be found @
https://magnusdurr.github.io/snapfire/w ... gels_NETEA

v1.86 is also playable in Tabletop Simulator! Go grab the army @
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... 1337912324


Attachments:
Dark Angels NetEA 1_86.pdf [78.28 KiB]
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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:35 pm, edited 40 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.0)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:12 pm 
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And if anyone wonders where the inspiration to the Deathwing Specialist Detachments come from, they can go and have a look at the Heavy Armour Breacher Elites at Vanguard.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.0)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Woo! Glad to see this project back off the ground! Some initial thoughts/concerns glancing through the list:

- Drop pods: they're not included in the Transport special rule as an option, but they are included in the unit summary?

-Tacticals/devestators: I'd keep these to just plasma honestly. The thought was probably to allow folks to use their normal marines in a DA list, but what it allows is one stand of missiles for 45cm blast markers and the rest with plasma for the 30cm smackdown. And, honestly, the list is already going to have a lot of toys and options. Reducing the flexibility of the tacticals seems good.

- Terminators: do we need 3 different kinds? If yes, "Assault Terminators" is traditionally the name for either dual lightning claw or thunderhammer & stormshield loadouts; these are just normal terminators and would definitely need a new name. Also adding a heavy flamer to the deathwing knights seems weird?

- What does this list lose compared to Codex Marines? It's less flexible in that it has core and support formations, and can't take titans, but otherwise it seems to be Codex + toys. Available options probably need to be pared down.

- Hunt for the Fallen: this might want to be restricted to just formations with character upgrades rather than infantry too; right now the opponent will have a lot of flexibility in choosing what it'll be (and honestly, in most cases they'll be able to pick their BTS anyway, which makes this pretty situational). Also needs a clause about the target formation being on the board at the end of the game? Right now Eldar for example could pick a unit of rangers and just keep them in the webway all game to deny this objective.


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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.0)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:49 pm 
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NoisyAssassin wrote:
- Drop pods: they're not included in the Transport special rule as an option, but they are included in the unit summary?


Great feedback NoisyAssassin!

Just copied the transport section from another list, didn't really read it through.

Quote:
-Tacticals/devestators: I'd keep these to just plasma honestly. The thought was probably to allow folks to use their normal marines in a DA list, but what it allows is one stand of missiles for 45cm blast markers and the rest with plasma for the 30cm smackdown. And, honestly, the list is already going to have a lot of toys and options. Reducing the flexibility of the tacticals seems good.


Good catch on the Plasma/Missile Launcher.

Quote:
- Terminators: do we need 3 different kinds? If yes, "Assault Terminators" is traditionally the name for either dual lightning claw or thunderhammer & stormshield loadouts; these are just normal terminators and would definitely need a new name. Also adding a heavy flamer to the deathwing knights seems weird?


Whether the list "needs" more than one type Terminators is of course a matter of taste. I thought this could be an interesting way to represent more than the usual type. The normal Terminators should have another name, I agree. The flamer is in the Knights unit for several reasons: 1. To give them a FF value. They become really situational otherwise. 2. To me the Deathwing Knights represent boarding Terminators, who will have Heavy Flamers with them. 3. Because the Vanguard kit I had in mind for the Specialist Deathwing Terminators has an extra Heavy Flamer.

Quote:
- What does this list lose compared to Codex Marines? It's less flexible in that it has core and support formations, and can't take titans, but otherwise it seems to be Codex + toys. Available options probably need to be pared down.


Well, if you have any suggestions for what should be removed I'm all ears. I think the list will struggle to get all that many activations, and will force Marines to play differently than they normally do. Look at the upgrades as well, they're in fairly specific places, and come in specific amounts. Access to the "toys" is restricted, so you will have to pay in order to get them.

It's quite problematic to remove core Space Marine stuff in the list, as it would be hard to motivate why they're missing.

As a more general point, the basic Codex Astartes list is quite outdated in terms of units. What it gives you is complete flexibility to select the force that you want. But for example you can't really play an armoured force with it and a lot of options are just kind of expensive and not seen that often (Whirlwinds, Destructors). I think it could do with a lot more options than it currently has given what GW has released recently. If you look at other Space Marine variant lists they also tend to add more than they subtract.

Finally, the list has options that are more expensive than in Vanilla Marines. Maybe more units should have a cost premium tho, considering the special rules they have.

Quote:
Hunt for the Fallen: this might want to be restricted to just formations with character upgrades rather than infantry too; right now the opponent will have a lot of flexibility in choosing what it'll be (and honestly, in most cases they'll be able to pick their BTS anyway, which makes this pretty situational). Also needs a clause about the target formation being on the board at the end of the game? Right now Eldar for example could pick a unit of rangers and just keep them in the webway all game to deny this objective.


Good points. Have not really considered this rule all that much. I'll have to think about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.1)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:31 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.2)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:36 am 
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I am kind of excited. I may have to storage drive and dust off my DAs. Once I get thru Cold Wars and AdeptiCon, I will pull them out.

I would can the MLs on the Devs.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.2)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:57 am 
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I've had a read through the list and have a few comments, some of which echo noisyassassin's above

Firstly the list has a LOT of options, more than most other SM lists, I know that gives variety of builds and whatnot, but I'd ask if you could try to pick out the pertinent bits that make the Dark Angels 'Dark Angels-y' and focus more on those?

for example, maybe take out the 'standard' predator formations and keep the executioners in to focus the theme more on the special toys the dark angels have, same for stuff like the Ares..... *maybe* the Ares could replace the vanilla land raider as an independent formation, and the land raiders be reserved to transport the deathwing around?

I'd be concerned with the potency of the deimos predators in a landing craft.... 4x 60cm Macro shots basically anywhere on the table is really really deadly, in fact I'd be tempted to remove the landing craft to remove that option, I can see that combo really putting some noses out of joint....

The terminators..... I don't think the list needs 3 flavours if I'm honest, the standard loadout is meant to represent a detachment with a mixture of ranged and close combat weapons, and does so pretty well in my opinion.... if you want to add a second flavour, please try the close assault terminators instead, the deathwing knights are ludicrously potent with 2 extra macro attacks each.... I'd suggest adopting the thunder hammer variant with CC2+ no shooting or FF and one extra attack rather than two (plus the inv save) with thunderhawks to fly them round in, they can almost always BTB their targets anyway and don't suffer the teleporter's curse of pre-prepping yourself then losing the strategy roll.... ;)

Thanks for not going overboard with the aircraft, they both look good as they are :)

I'd probably drop the plasma option from the tacticals and make devs fixed twin plasma, giving infantry weapon options is a tad too granular, plus no other marine list has it, pick a thematic weapon loadout and stick with it :)

I'm aware the restrictive list structure helps mitigate some potential issues, although I'm not sure if the Landing craft and space craft need to go into the air third

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.3)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Good feedback Kuss, have uploaded v1.3 as a response.

Less options now, but with the rigid structure the list has it's hard to cut down too much in any given category without losing too much flavour, but YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.3)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:41 pm 
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okay further feedback from my point of view and I wanted to get this out early so it can be discussed/ignored as everyone sees fit

the list has some very strong restrictions, which is not a bad thing in and of itself, but right now it feels a bit like 2 or 3 lists mashed together..... if you go heavy on the ravenwing, then you can't fit much deathwing in there, then you need ironwing support but you can't afford the stuff you need to include to get the juicy toys.... It might almost work better as 2 separate lists....

I had planned to take on this list and reboot it somewhat, using the newer stats from Mard's list, but I felt someone else should run it as I don't want to seem like I'm hogging lists under my purview

my own idea was to make the ravenwing the core element, as I understand it, they exist as a department within the larger Dark Angels organisation specifically to hunt down the fallen, the nice toys like plasma preds, glaives, deathwing dudes would exist as an adjunct to that

so a very basic structure would be something like:

Core-

Ravenwing formations
Ravenwing land speeders+variants (don't unlock support)

Special- (2-3 per ravenwing formation)

Tacs/Assaults/Devs/Scouts
Deathwing termies (can swap stands for assault termies, also can have land raiders or crusaders)
spaceships
landing craft (need to be careful with this and plasma preds)
tanks (preds, vindicators, whirlwinds etc)

Elite (1 per ravenwing formation)

plasma preds
LR Ares
Glaives

Aircraft (the usual 1/3 limit applies)

Nephilims
Dark Talons
Thunderhawks

it lets folks take most of their DA toys and, I hope, helps to give the list a strong theme around the ravenwing by making their inclusion mandatory, it also really helps to justify the 'hunt for the fallen' rule which as it stands really needs robust testing (I played a big xmas game once where the dark angels had to take down EVERY character in the opposing army to capture the fallen, but that's not much fun if you face orks with a warboss in a great gargant....)

I just hope to stimulate some discussion and hope we can make a well rounded, yet strongly themed list which isn't just codex plus toys, and has its own unique playstyle and theme, I really hope this post is taken in the constructive manner in which it is intended :)

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.3)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:56 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
the list has some very strong restrictions, which is not a bad thing in and of itself, but right now it feels a bit like 2 or 3 lists mashed together..... if you go heavy on the ravenwing, then you can't fit much deathwing in there, then you need ironwing support but you can't afford the stuff you need to include to get the juicy toys.... It might almost work better as 2 separate lists....


The restrictions are super strong, I agree. And it's very much an experiment in that regard. The general plan is simply to limit cherry picking, which in my experience tends to make lists look the same.

But perhaps that makes the lists people take too one sided.

Quote:
I had planned to take on this list and reboot it somewhat, using the newer stats from Mard's list, but I felt someone else should run it as I don't want to seem like I'm hogging lists under my purview

my own idea was to make the ravenwing the core element, as I understand it, they exist as a department within the larger Dark Angels organisation specifically to hunt down the fallen, the nice toys like plasma preds, glaives, deathwing dudes would exist as an adjunct to that


I think that while the list should allow such an army to be taken, players shouldn't be forced to take Ravenwing if they don't want to. That would be to take the restrictions too far in another direction, and Dark Angels isn't always in every battle hunting the Fallen after all.

Loosening up the restrictions a bit might help. And maybe the "Hunt for the Fallen" rule might be restricted to armies that include a Ravenwing detachment and / or an Interrogator Chaplain?

Quote:
I just hope to stimulate some discussion and hope we can make a well rounded, yet strongly themed list which isn't just codex plus toys, and has its own unique playstyle and theme, I really hope this post is taken in the constructive manner in which it is intended :)


No worries. The Dark Angels is a very particular list, and people are always going to have strong opinions about it. While it will be impossible to please everybody, I'm aiming to make it possible play a variety of lists without going overboard with options. And I can understand that the extremely rigid org in the current list isn't everyone's cup of tea.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.3)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:29 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.4)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:58 am 
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Forcing one into the restrictions of the different wings, and Hunt the Fallen objective is our DA flavor fav. I would like to play the tight restriction over serval months before loosening up the limits.

So Ravenwing and the Deathwing inner circle are your tier one operators. They should be better than line troops and very expensive. There involvement in a battle would be small in number and very specific in task. (think about the operational relationship between delta and the rangers) In that right, if you take them numbers should be small and the "Hunt the Fallen" must be automatic.
It should be a choice to take them or not. As all DAs are not debriefed on the true nature of the Legion. The legion maintains the dark secret all the while continuing normal theater operations.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.4)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:05 am 
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m_folais wrote:
Forcing one into the restrictions of the different wings, and Hunt the Fallen objective is our DA flavor fav. I would like to play the tight restriction over serval months before loosening up the limits.


I kind of liked the super-rigid wings too, but I recognize that it might be too much for most people. There's really nothing to prevent you from playing it that way if you like tho.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.4)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:55 am 
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How about running some polls to gauge what the community want from the list? I did that with the Imperial Fists, now IF are almost as big at exemplifying the codex as the ultramarines, but the list emphasises the dogged, siege defending aspect of them, do the 'real' IF have Assault marines, bikes, thunderhawks, landers and spacecraft? They certainly do, but those units dilute the *theme* of the NetEA list so were deemed unneccessary.

While few non-DA successors fight DA-style, the list should play as something other than 'codex plus extra toys and minus a few options', that approach was really what killed the most recent incarnation of the Blood Angels list, because rather than complimenting the existing panopy of marine lists, it made most of them largely obsolete....

for me, the unique thing about the dark angels is the ravenwing and their secretive hunt for the fallen, I'm not saying get rid of the deathwing or ironwing, but to pick a strong theme for the dark angels and stick with it, rather than trying to represent all the different ways the dark angels can play. Other chapters use lots of armour (chief among them the scions of iron, but also the IF and Iron hands) so maybe drop the focus back on the more Dark Angels specific styles and have more limited deathwing/ironwing options, perhaps just the more special DA-only units

If you want a more general codex-style list then use the codex list and proxy all your nice DA minis in, that's what it exists for

The guy who mentored me at my first 'proper' job after leaving university once told me that a good designer designs with his eraser, not his pencil, my approach is always to cut stuff first, then add other bits in afterwards, not that I'm advocating that for anyone else of course, just be aware that once a unit is in a list, it's harder to remove it, it's generally better to pare the list back, then add things as people ask, people tend to be happier when you give them a new toy rather than take one away ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the Dark Angels (v1.4)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:32 pm 
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I really agree with the point of view that each SM army needs a strong theme, but going with the comparison with your Imperial Fist; I feel like making Ravenwing the defining unit in the list would be a bit like forcing the Imperial Fist player to take all Inf in bunkers.

Right now you *can* take bunkers, but it's certainly possible to play IF without ever even considering the fortifications.

At the end of the day, I suspect all a poll would reveal is that different people are looking for different things from the DA list. And it's a list that's not lacking in things to theme it around:

Stuff off the top of my head:
-> The Deathwing
-> The Ravenwing, the Hunt for the Fallen
-> The Ironwing, and unique Relic items from the Horus Heresy such as the Fellglaive
-> The Plasma weaponry
-> The AA Dreadnought is a novelty item in 40k, but a very interesting unit in Epic
-> The Ares Land Raider

Apart from that, there are certain things that simply can't be missing from a Space Marine list. Which units is of course different for different players, which is why I've been hesitant to do it so far. If it were up to me, there are several things that would get pushed out.

One approach would be to take away some of the redundant units in the list, which I also happen to feel are too common in other SM lists.
-> The Annihilators (which compete with the Land Raiders and the Deimos Relics)
-> The Thunderhawk (which compete with Teleport, drop pods and the Landing Craft)
-> Scouts (which compete with the Land Speeders)

Other people will make a different selection, but it's certainly possible to deliver a list without a lot of the stuff people expect to see in a Space Marine army.

I also think that enabling too easy access to the Heresy era weapons goes against the fluff. Each army should be able to take one unit, but only a themed Ironwing list should be able to take two or three, we don't want EA to become Epic 30k after all.

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