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NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.1 [Developmental]

 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:34 am 
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Pretty sure Sautek infantry were meant to mirror the changes that occured in 28mm 40K when they finally updated the Necron codex 2011-ish?. The new warriors/infantry in general got wrose armor saves from what I recall (from a 3+ to 4+ I think). So yeah they don't really match the old 6mm statline as much, hence the name change to "Sautek."

As always I defer to the experts opinions on the matter though. :)


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:27 am 
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Redgeran wrote:
Pretty sure Sautek infantry were meant to mirror the changes that occured in 28mm 40K when they finally updated the Necron codex 2011-ish?. The new warriors/infantry in general got wrose armor saves from what I recall (from a 3+ to 4+ I think). So yeah they don't really match the old 6mm statline as much, hence the name change to "Sautek."

As always I defer to the experts opinions on the matter though. :)


Be that as it may looking at the stats of warriors and immortals doesn't leave me much reason to run warriors which is a real shame for compatibility with the approved necron lists.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:49 am 
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The big reason why I would pick Warriors is that you can get a larger formation size for relatively the same cost.

Currently I think that the Immortals are undercosted, but still need more test games with this list.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:12 pm 
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Beefcake4000 wrote:
Be that as it may looking at the stats of warriors and immortals doesn't leave me much reason to run warriors which is a real shame for compatibility with the approved necron lists.


I wasn't a big fan of the change in warrior armour when it happened either but it make sense both as Redgeran and Tiny-Tim hit it right on. It also made the standard portal lists less cheesy as portal assault effectiveness became less overpowered. We did test out the warriors at the +4 but the formations with the Arcs were near unkillable. The flayed ones at 4+ were also just too potent for their points. Play testing showed it really helped balance out the new additions to the Sauteckh list that filled in the weaknesses of the Raiders list (Good Ranged options, Non-WE AA, Fliers) as well.
The warriors in the fluff are always portrayed as a massive horde of kill robots and I think the current formations structure does well to capture this.

Tiny-Tim wrote:
The big reason why I would pick Warriors is that you can get a larger formation size for relatively the same cost.Currently I think that the Immortals are undercosted, but still need more test games with this list.

A way to counter this may be to move the Immortals from Phalanx section to the support section where they are a little more restricted.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:26 pm 
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That is definitely worth testing.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:19 am 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
That is definitely worth testing.


The problem is that your forcing the list into a core of warriors that are really crap compared to approved necrons. Combined with the substantial hits to portals and living metal I'd be struggling to justify why I'd play this version rather than core. The option becomes play the fluffy but weak rons or the more limited but effective approved list. Not that appealing.

If anything the warriors and should be cheaper to justify the stats as should the flayed ones. Consider the imperial stormtroopers as a contrast for 175pts I get 8 of them with similar stats, yes they can't do a portal assault but they will get inspiring and a macro cc attack for free.

I can see what the fluff motivation behind the stats change but they should still be in line with the core troops for points, there are no buffs in this list to justify the points cost. I reckon immortals re find considering stats and abilities


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:11 am 
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I can see your point, but facing up against Marines, in my last game, the Immortals were several points better even with spending the additional points.

I will dig out my Warrior list and see if I can get a game in with them soon. (Need to finish off S-H tests first though.)

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:45 am 
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Beefcake4000 wrote:
Tiny-Tim wrote:
That is definitely worth testing.


The problem is that your forcing the list into a core of warriors that are really crap compared to approved necrons. Combined with the substantial hits to portals and living metal I'd be struggling to justify why I'd play this version rather than core. The option becomes play the fluffy but weak rons or the more limited but effective approved list. Not that appealing.

If anything the warriors and should be cheaper to justify the stats as should the flayed ones. Consider the imperial stormtroopers as a contrast for 175pts I get 8 of them with similar stats, yes they can't do a portal assault but they will get inspiring and a macro cc attack for free.

I can see what the fluff motivation behind the stats change but they should still be in line with the core troops for points, there are no buffs in this list to justify the points cost. I reckon immortals re find considering stats and abilities


Can't say I agree with this, the Sautekh warriors are weaker but the list is arguably stronger.

Sautekh list pros over standard list- (roughly)
1.Fliers (good fliers too, one even has a portal on it which is great for late game objective grabbing/contesting, one has a MW shot and the other is an extremely effective bomber)
2. Reasonable ranged weapons. Very handy for preventing/mixing up strategy options. Mears castle strategy isn't the go to counter for Necrons.
3. Being able to take AA, large war engines and a supreme commander in the same list.
4. More afordable large Warengines
5. Points drop on warriors (25pts)
6. Points drop on monoliths (25pts)
7. Non WE AA.

Cons from the standard list:
1. Armour nerf on warriors and flayed ones
2. Living metal vs TK shots (in practice this has made fairly little difference)
3. No more monster Ctan supreme commander (I like the old C'tan!)
4. Can't portal off the board.
5. Blast markers for using portals on broken formations. (Would consider dropping this though as its not very clean, and in practice doesn't make a huge difference most of the time).
6. No phase out (depending on the situation).

Comparitively the warriors going from 4 to 5 armour is quite significant when looking at the formation out of context with the lists. The Necron Raider warriors were the back bone of the list. With the Sautekh list they aren't required to be nearly as central to strategy. Also Storm troopers are 200 pts (unless there was a change that isn't in the approved list that I am ignorant of) for a group of 8. They don't regenerate, they don't have a 1+ activation, and no portals. Add 50 points and they can get a MW and inspiring also. I would be open to changing the cost to 175 if the immortals were moved to support.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:48 am 
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atension wrote:
Can't say I agree with this, the Sautekh warriors are weaker but the list is arguably stronger.

Cons from the standard list:
1. Armour nerf on warriors and flayed ones
2. Living metal vs TK shots (in practice this has made fairly little difference)
3. No more monster Ctan supreme commander (I like the old C'tan!)
4. Can't portal off the board.
5. Blast markers for using portals on broken formations. (Would consider dropping this though as its not very clean, and in practice doesn't make a huge difference most of the time).
6. No phase out (depending on the situation).

Comparitively the warriors going from 4 to 5 armour is quite significant when looking at the formation out of context with the lists. The Necron Raider warriors were the back bone of the list. With the Sautekh list they aren't required to be nearly as central to strategy. Also Storm troopers are 200 pts (unless there was a change that isn't in the approved list that I am ignorant of) for a group of 8. They don't regenerate, they don't have a 1+ activation, and no portals. Add 50 points and they can get a MW and inspiring also. I would be open to changing the cost to 175 if the immortals were moved to support.


See the interesting thing is that I see your examples above but don't come to the same conclusions. I think the cons list are all dead right and are really big cons. By contrast here's what I'd say about the pros

1.Fliers (good fliers too, one even has a portal on it which is great for late game objective grabbing/contesting, one has a MW shot and the other is an extremely effective bomber) - Absolutely right, except that the flying portal goes in the nyah category given that it costs the same as 2 monoliths, dies to AA fire which is no issue to deep striking monoliths and doesn't provide the support fire... I.e. IMO whilst an interesting unit it adds nothing that a Monolith doesn't already do better! The other bombers are really interesting and I'll agree powerful but given that their points seem appropriate it's not much of a positive is it?

2. Reasonable ranged weapons. Very handy for preventing/mixing up strategy options. Mears castle strategy isn't the go to counter for Necrons. - Agree - Doomsday arks are really interesting but normal rons already have them, it's called obelisks... sure they don't have the range but since they teleport... Given that the only advantage to the doomsdays is the range and they lose out on points cost and armour I'll stick with obelisks. Sentry maniple is also a bit interesting but I'm struggling to see how the 2 macro hits they will do each turn on average is much of a big deal, not to mention that as a 4 man unit they'll last about 2 seconds before being broken.

3) Being able to take AA, large war engines and a supreme commander in the same list - I could always take 2/3 of that anyway with a Ctan and a couple of pylons, usually backed up by a warbarque in my build. The only thing I couldn't take is the Aeonic orb which I've never seen anyone bother with or the Abattoir whose most fantastic ability has also been removed for this version... so lets call it "Abattoir light" and pop it into the cons category... I guess you must really love the Aeonic orb since this was on the pros list?

4) 4. More afordable large Warengines - True they recognised that the Aonic Orb was garbage and pointed it appropriately, can't argue and of course the now castrated Abattoir wouldn't want to be more points... hell I'd happily pay the original points to get my infiltrate back.

5. Points drop on warriors (25pts) - True but does a 10% reduction justify the -1 to armour? Not in my books

6. Points drop on monoliths (25pts) - Sure but trading that for the the glories of phasing, rallying and redeploying next turn out not much of a pro.

7. Non WE AA. - Really... if there's one thing Necrons had no more need for its ground based AA... They got the best in the game already.

So I guess my point is that you're pros list in my mind doesn't in any way balance the cons list. I like the new options presented in the new list and think its good. I don't like the differences to the core list or think they are necessary. Fluff is one thing but consistency between lists is another, and frankly far more important factor.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:40 am 
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Thank you for your thoughts. I'll be honest that I feel the list is still overpowered and would like to see more of the con's toned down rather than looking to boost/reduce current downgrades.

However I suppose the only way to really get things moving is to get more games in and show each other our points. This will be a few weeks away from my side, but if you can get any reports done I'll be very interested to see what, how etc. you play.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:46 pm 
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@Beefcake4000 - I think you are using the wrong list. The abattoir has infiltrate, probably a few other changes you are missing as well.

I can see your point on the sentry pylons and the fliers etc.. as not being anything great before putting them into practice. But the thing with Necrons is that you have to always consider the list as a whole when looking at one formation individually. There are so many combo synergistic relationships that make a formation in another list look like nothing special but in this list have a huge impact. Not sure how much experience you've had playing the raider list but seasoned players know that seasoned opponents can counter the only raiders strategy and prevail ~2/3 times. The new units give the Sautekh list so many more options that will make it much harder for your opponent to counter the dreaded portal attacks. Games are no longer so strategically linear and the sautekh take a little me finesse to play well.

Anyways that's just my opinion. Happy to hear some criticism saying necrons are under powered for a change, means we are getting close to a balanced list.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:08 pm 
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Yes I think you're glossing over the fliers for instance - why do they need to be better than monoliths to be a plus in the list? Yes teleport gets you wherever you want to be, but the point is you have to risk winning strategy and can't get all your attacks off without your opponent getting a chance to move away or kill them. Fliers mean you don't need to put all the portals down on the board at the same time (revealing your intentions in the process). You also get ranged options to deal with ground AA and of course still get your own to deter interceptors.

The list isn't supposed to be better than raiders, just more nuanced and to address the poor perception opponents often have of the necron special rules and extreme units. Personally it still looks a little to me like it's plugging weaknesses in raiders with not enough of its own but I haven't seen it in action.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:38 am 
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atension wrote:
@Beefcake4000 - I think you are using the wrong list. The abattoir has infiltrate, probably a few other changes you are missing as well.


Damn you were right, I was looking at 0.5. Sadly this makes it worse... Abattoir gets better which is good but sentry pylons went from vaguely interesting to really terrible. Lol, can't win!


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:47 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
The list isn't supposed to be better than raiders, just more nuanced and to address the poor perception opponents often have of the necron special rules and extreme units. Personally it still looks a little to me like it's plugging weaknesses in raiders with not enough of its own but I haven't seen it in action.


I guess that just reinforces the importance of seeing it in action then eh....

I do wonder how much of the complaining about necron core rules is reflective of their performance overall and how much of it just lazy players who are upset that the tactics they use on other armies don't work on rons... One of the great things about this game is the vast differences in play style between armies.

Tiny Tim is right though, I'll organise some data to back up my commmentary.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:06 am 
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Beefcake4000 wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
The list isn't supposed to be better than raiders, just more nuanced and to address the poor perception opponents often have of the necron special rules and extreme units. Personally it still looks a little to me like it's plugging weaknesses in raiders with not enough of its own but I haven't seen it in action.


I guess that just reinforces the importance of seeing it in action then eh....

I do wonder how much of the complaining about necron core rules is reflective of their performance overall and how much of it just lazy players who are upset that the tactics they use on other armies don't work on rons... One of the great things about this game is the vast differences in play style between armies.

Tiny Tim is right though, I'll organise some data to back up my commmentary.
Well I don't consider myself lazy but yes that's (almost) the point, as discussed in the first posts about the rationale of the list: The necrons had/have an image problem, which is not necessarily about balance but precisely because the necron rules and units neatly bypass a lot of an opponent's own abilities and units - teleporting portals, living metal, phase out, titan killing 90cm range AA etc. There -are- groups who don't use the necron list because of that image, and so we can't just dismiss it as irrelevant.

The Sautekh list seeks to address it by toning down some of the elements that made the list read like a 10 year old boy's uber-army wish list. That is in exchange for some other options in the list to make the necrons less dependent on those elements. Personally I think it is progress, but what I'm trying to say is it still reads a bit cheesy (e.g. the fliers) to non-necron players. That's got nothing to do with how the list actually performs (unlike Tiny-Tim I can't comment on whether it is OP or not and I defer to you guys to take care of ensuring it remains competitive). But my regular opponents will still raise an eyebrow at the use of this list.

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