Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 165 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.1 [Developmental]

 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:25 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:00 pm
Posts: 790
Location: Toronto
Kyrt wrote:
The Sautekh list seeks to address it by toning down some of the elements that made the list read like a 10 year old boy's uber-army wish list. That is in exchange for some other options in the list to make the necrons less dependent on those elements. Personally I think it is progress, but what I'm trying to say is it still reads a bit cheesy (e.g. the fliers) to non-necron players. That's got nothing to do with how the list actually performs (unlike Tiny-Tim I can't comment on whether it is OP or not and I defer to you guys to take care of ensuring it remains competitive). But my regular opponents will still raise an eyebrow at the use of this list.


Well put. The Raiders list in tournaments has come middle of the pack in nearly every tournament I can recall checking stats on. I don't actually recall it ever coming in first.

Personally I'm not a fan of how wordy the special rules have become with the Sautekh list and would love to stream line it a little more. The main culprits A) Living metal, B) broken portals, and C) the portals on the night scythes.
A) I've played a few games using the UK list (LM = a 4+ inv save), I can't deny this cleans up a lot of the hang ups opponents have with the list overriding their special rules. In practice it isn't as big a change as you might think.
B) I put the broken portal rule in place to have some draw back from formations with portals being broken. This is a lot of extra rule wordage with minimal practical impact. Considering dropping it entirely.
C) Really interested in getting more (tested) input on the night scythes. I've played in the area of 15 tournament style matches with them (3k points, standard scenario) spanning both their incarnations. A lot of my opponents took exception with being able to prep the target of a portal attack with the scythes. I can't deny it is very helpful. BUT they always forget that unlike a normal transport aircraft an air assult is one activation. A portal air assault is two activations. If you mess up your retain, GG for the landed scythes. To be fair though this also still means that the units being transported aren't vulnerable to being shot down on entry and BMs acquired on the Scythes approach don't contribute to the combat resolution.

Just a recap for people play testing this list a few requested changes based on play trsting to the 1.0 version are likely going to be included in the next version:
1. 3+MW dropping to 4+MW on the doom scythes
2. Shroud bombers losing Ignore Cover on the BP weapon.
3. Sentry Maniple dropping to 225 points.
4. Annhiliation barges gaining EA+1 (small arms) (brings them more inline with the other options for the Indicium Maniple)
5. Immortals, two additional units upgrade going from 75 to 100 points.

_________________
Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:18 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1832
Location: Oslo, Norway
atension wrote:
Well put. The Raiders list in tournaments has come middle of the pack in nearly every tournament I can recall checking stats on. I don't actually recall it ever coming in first.


The Raiders list won one or two of the tournaments I've been to in Berlin, but that was admittedly in the hands of one of their better players.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:36 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 8116
Location: Manalapan, FL
Broken portals having no drawbacks was the #1 one reason the entire Seattle Microsoft epic group dropped necrons COMPLETELY. As in when I moved across continent no one even wanted their army back (how I ended up with 6k of, sadly, not great painted Necrons sitting in my house needing attention). That's serious levels of NO.

I know I haven't provided much in gameplay for this new list but I'd strongly suggest that's a decision taken carefully. When you want a formation to break there's something very wrong. We're a small data point in a large player base (or were) but this is an example of that perception problem you've brought up earlier. necron are not OP, just not fun to play against (rules that negate rules are generally not a good sign). Incidentally the changes to LM being a fantastic tweak as they don't negate the possible effect, even though they may reduce probability of it occurring.

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Last edited by jimmyzimms on Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:27 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:00 pm
Posts: 790
Location: Toronto
jimmyzimms wrote:
Broken portals having no drawbacks was the #1 one reason the entire Seattle epic world dropped necrons COMPLETELY. I know I haven't provided much in gameplay for this new list but I'd strongly suggest that's taken carefully. When you want a formation to break there's something very wrong.we're a small data point in a large player base (or were) but this is an example of that perception problem you've brought up.


Broken portals doing nothing combined with phase out and formations portaling back into reserves I agree can be quite aggravating. But what about broken portals doing nothing with no phase out and formations having to stay on the board. This greatly limits the number of portal attacks that can be executed already.

_________________
Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:39 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1832
Location: Oslo, Norway
The problem with the Raiders list is that it works and is pretty balanced, but does stuff so differently (in a Ha Ha Nope!) way that it can be infuriating to play against. And part of being balanced is that the entire army has multiple interdependent synergies - nerfing any part can be like pulling a block out of a jenga tower.

Changing anything almost requires the list to be built up from scratch (which is where the Sautekh list is). Looks like this is heading in the right direction.

Note that broken portals are an issue in Eldar lists as well (Storm Serpents), but as broken Serpents can be killed at leasure if they attempt to move forward it's not regarded as a big problem.

Also, the Eldar have tons of other infuriating bits to annoy opponents.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:50 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:00 pm
Posts: 790
Location: Toronto
Ulrik wrote:
The problem with the Raiders list is that it works and is pretty balanced, but does stuff so differently (in a Ha Ha Nope!) way that it can be infuriating to play against. And part of being balanced is that the entire army has multiple interdependent synergies - nerfing any part can be like pulling a block out of a jenga tower.

Changing anything almost requires the list to be built up from scratch (which is where the Sautekh list is). Looks like this is heading in the right direction.

Note that broken portals are an issue in Eldar lists as well (Storm Serpents), but as broken Serpents can be killed at leasure if they attempt to move forward it's not regarded as a big problem.

Also, the Eldar have tons of other infuriating bits to annoy opponents.


Well put. Should try facing a Saim-Hann list it takes the annoying bonus abilities to the extreme. Double retains, portals (gates and serpents), full 35cm consolidation move, Shoot Move shoot with skimmers, a free teleporting warengine. Maddness I say!

_________________
Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:15 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 8116
Location: Manalapan, FL
agreed, well said Ulrik, especially the "a Ha Ha Nope!" bit which made me chuckle.

I should state atension that the ponderous special is a big deal with the break forward annoyance of the Scarab Conflict list. With your change to LM mentioned earlier it's one of the most important changes.

However again, this is one of those perception things, not about balance. I don't think the underlying issue was actually solved, just that the FOC is way better constructed that makes multiple builds and strategies possible and viable where it's not the entire way it gets played (so basically sidestepped not solved). Perhaps that is a enough. I'm not saying don't ditch but to consider the reaction to ditching.

Also, and perhaps more importantly, the decisions made here are going to have far longer lasting repercussions in Necron lists in the future. After all, I'm pretty certain that this isn't the last list you're planning on making and that future lists would be based on what happens here. So because it's very much sidestepped here might just mean we've kicked the can down the road and 1. are going to have to deal with it anyways, and 2. now have more baggage. I just want to make sure that's not the case where we find ourselves a few years down the road going, "crap!" :)

BTW not really sure why the Aonic Orb needed portal. I actually missed that evidentally.

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:39 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:00 pm
Posts: 790
Location: Toronto
The aeonic orb without the portal is not worth the points. That reminds me the aeonic orb will likely have its TK attack changed to 2xD3 rather than 1D6. If you take away the portal also taking into account the change to LM what do you think should be added to make it worth taking?

Hoping you can give the list a try and let me know your thoughts. It plays very differently than the raiders.

_________________
Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 8116
Location: Manalapan, FL
to me it was just needing a point tweak here. I'm not really a fan of giant point sink units in EA though so it's not really going to be a very interesting unit to me so I'm probably not the target audience. ;D It was more of a, "wait what? They got a portal now so there goes BTS" reaction at first. :nooo <= literal

Yeah this list has made me want to actually take those hand me down armies, forge a nice 4-5k force instead of just turning them into an exercise in modeling. That should tell you something about how much nicer this is for general play (raiders was really fun for the scenarios, not so much GT)

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2239
Location: UK
Well personally I don't think you should be able to use broken portals. In either necrons or eldar. It's one of those suspension of disbelief things.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:03 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:00 pm
Posts: 790
Location: Toronto
Kyrt wrote:
Well personally I don't think you should be able to use broken portals. In either necrons or eldar. It's one of those suspension of disbelief things.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


Yeah, your not the first to suggest that. Though in practice it makes the raiders list absolutely unplayable. Haven't tried it with the Sautekh, though I have a feeling it would severely hamper it as well.

_________________
Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:00 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:59 pm
Posts: 196
Location: Edinburgh
Your thoughts on the list mirror my observations as well. Got two more games in recently and flyers seemed a bit overpowered for the points spent in first place. That aside, getting rid of unnecessary additional rules in favour of list simplicity to aid a clear and streamlined ruleset is always a good thing.

_________________
Image


My Specialist Games blog: http://gemana.wordpress.com/
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UClbU-8oQsI7kdtt-eoF6VTQ


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:54 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:23 pm
Posts: 289
Location: Newcastle, UK
I've played a couple of games with the the EpicUK list and with regards to the "fiddlyness" of measuring movement for formations through portals we've reached a house rule whereby entering a portal ends that segment of the formation's movement. So basically if a formation wishes to go through one portal and out of another needs to move at the double. We've found it helps make things a bit of easier to handle the movement that way. I know it means I can't engage through portals but I thought I would suggest it and see what people's thoughts on it are.

Also I've never used portals through broken portals as it just seemed somehow like a kick in the teeth for my opponent.

I admit that I haven't tried this list yet as I'm still scratchbuilding enough obelisks, monoliths and pylons to do a full raiders list without proxies but I'll be looking to build some ghost arc type stuff once they're done so hopefully I'll be able to help with some reports soon.

As I say I've only played a half dozen games with the raiders list and these may have been suggested before so do with them as you will :)

Sent from my 4027X using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 1:39 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4505
Location: North Yorkshire
Got a game in with the Sautekh list on Friday vs Evil & Chaos playing Marines.

I took the following:

1 Warrior Phalanx 6 Sautekh Warriors + 3 Sautekh Warriors, Cryptek & Overlord
2 Warrior Phalanx 6 Sautekh Warriors + 4 Sautekh Warriors & Cryptek
3 Sentry Pylons
4 Blade Maniple
5 Flayed Ones
6 Destroyers - 6 Heavy Destroyers
7 Monoliths 2 +2 Sautekh Monolith
8 Monoliths 2
9 Tesseract Vault
10 Night Scythes 2
11 Spacecraft

The game went to four turns with the Marines winning 2-0. If either side had more units left they could have swung the game. However with the Marines going first in every turn, the Sautekh Necrons were steadily cut down and from the losing side it looked like a simple win for the Marines. E&C might say differently. It also didn't help that the Spacecraft missed with all of its shots....

Mistakes that I made playing with the Sautekh – left the sentry pylons exposed again & over committed the Flayed Ones.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.0 [Developmental]
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 1:51 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20708
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote:
It also didn't help that the Spacecraft missed with all of its shots.

I think this really hurt you.

This list seemed weaker than other Sautekh lists you've played.

_________________
6mm scale Scifi Plastic Sprues available here!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 165 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net