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Split Fire (Titans)

 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:53 am 
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could be fun for an alternate bits of rules for fun/a lark. I think if you added a suite of rules like that the Crippling Damage concept and then some form of power generation rules (discussed a few times here over the years) coupled with this could be a fun take on titans in a game of EA. Such a thing has a concept as both Neal Hunt and BlackLegion/Myself have both come up with alternate flyer rules for farts and laughs. The earth doesn't suddenly spin off its axis, just don't expect any of this to make it into the core rules/TP.

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:50 am 
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Vaaish wrote:
When I first got into epic myself I wanted titans to split fire and there's been lengthy debates about it in the past.


That i expected as much, given that i don't remember the discussions back then but, was there any testing? what was tested? What were the results? Those are more important and could help us in any plasma or cripling damage rules that are talked about now.

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:12 am 
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plasma or cripling damage rules


What's the discussion been around Plasma?

And about the Split Fire rule, I'm conflicted about it. On one hand, I'd like to see if Crippling Damage could be enough on its own. On the other, I can't say I've seen much difference from it, so it might be that lists with a lot of Battle Titans (DC6+) needs something like it to become viable.

Potentially, I think that Crippling Damage and Split Fire could maybe balance each other at existing point values, as long as the Split Fire rule doesn't become too strong.

I'd be open for playtesting Split Fire in Questoris Mechanicus and TTL as an alternative Sustain Fire action: No movement or turning (which is a big deal for WE obviously) and +1 no bonus on the attack. May split fire between two different targets (or maybe as many targets as there are weapon systems?), but each weapon system can only fire at a single target.

Or if someone else has a better idea?

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:29 am 
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Maybe something like this?

Split Fire
Battle Titans (War Engines with 6 or more DC:s and an Initiative of 1+) come equipped with advanced targeting equipment meaning that the different weapon systems have a certain autonomy. This is represented by the Split Fire special rule, which allows for an alternative action when carrying out a Sustained Fire action.
1. Split Fire works as a normal Sustain Fire action, but can be targeted against up to 3 target formations.
2. For each formation after the first, the entire action suffers a -1 to-hit penalty.
3. Each individual weapon system may only be targeted at a single target formation.

A neat thing when combined with the Crippling Damage rule is that the -1 penalty to Initiative means it would no longer be able to Split Fire. But it would obviously mean that things like the Lord of Battle or the Gargants wouldn't benefit from it... Which might or might not be appropriate?

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:43 am 
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Mrdiealot wrote:

What's the discussion been around Plasma?


Vaalsh mentioned he intended to fiddle with that after getting the Skitarii to aproved.

Mrdiealot wrote:
I'd like to see if Crippling Damage could be enough on its own. On the other, I can't say I've seen much difference from it, so it might be that lists with a lot of Battle Titans (DC6+) needs something like it to become viable.


Well, to be fair you only tried it twice and in one of the games had an Emperor, whcih even if crippled harshly is something most people won't try to touch, even in first and second edition with all of those decay mechanics they have.

Like i adviced you some weeks before i would test it with a few more games with mostly Reavers and Warlords and decide and discuss further after that.

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:51 am 
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I've tested it in another game that I haven't posted as well. But I've got a definite feeling that it's not enough. I think making it slightly worse (penalty to armour, kicks in at half rather than below half, no split fire) might make it more attractive. Some version of Split Fire may also make the big Titans harder to ignore... With this version of Crippling Damage it might be worth testing allowing Split Fire on both Sustain Fire and Advance actions.

Quote:
9. Crippling Damage (Playtest Version)
War Engines with 6 or more starting Damage Capacity that has half or less of its starting Damage Capacity left suffers the following penalties:

1. Counts as having half its starting Damage Capacity for determining the number of blast markers it can have before it becomes broken.
2. Counts as having half its starting Damage Capacity for determining how many Close Combat and/or Fire Fight dice it gets.
3. Suffers an additional -1 modifier to its armour value (e.g. 5+ instead of 4+).
3. The War Engine (and any formation it is part of) counts as having +1 (worse) initiative for all purposes (e.g. 2+ instead of 1+, 3+ instead of 2+). This means it can no longer Split Fire if it previously had a 1+ Initiative.

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Here's what I've got right now in TTL v2.3 Beta

Quote:
9. Crippling Damage (Playtest Version)
War Engines with 6 or more starting Damage Capacity that has half or less of its starting Damage Capacity left suffers the following penalties:

1. Counts as having half its starting Damage Capacity for determining the number of blast markers it can have before it becomes broken.
2. Counts as having half its starting Damage Capacity for determining how many Close Combat and/or Fire Fight dice it gets.
3. Suffers an additional -1 modifier to its armour value (e.g. 5+ instead of 4+).
4. The War Engine (and any formation it is part of) counts as having +1 (worse) initiative for all purposes (e.g. 2+ instead of 1+, 3+ instead of 2+). This means it can no longer Split Fire if it previously had a 1+ Initiative.
Round fractions up. Crippling Damage takes effect after the activation that caused it has been resolved.


Quote:
10. Battle Titan Split Fire (Playtest Version)
Battle Titans (War Engines with 6 or more DC:s and an Initiative of 1+) come equipped with advanced targeting and coordination equipment meaning that the different weapon systems have a certain autonomy in battle. Split Fire can be used with the Sustain Fire or Advance actions.
1. Split Fire gives an additional -1 on the activation (and must be declared before the roll).
2. Split fire can be targeted against up to 3 target formations (but each individual weapon may only be targeted at a single target).
3. For each formation after the first, there's an additional -1 to-hit penalty.

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Quote:
What's the discussion been around Plasma?


There's not really been much discussion. It's mostly some thoughts I was playing with ages ago that never got much traction. I still think it could be interesting since it allows titans to degrade as they are damaged. Basic principles where this:

Every titan has plasma points equal to it's current remaining DC. Warhounds start with 3, Reavers 6, Warlords 8.
Scout titan weapons cost 1 plasma point to fire
Battle titan weapons cost 2 plasma points to fire.

So, for example, a reaver armed with 3x battle titan weapons can fire all three as per current rules. Once it takes a point of damage it would only be able to fire two weapons per turn. Compare to a reaver with 2x battle titan weapons and 1x scout weapon which could still fire all three after taking a point of damage.

The hope was that this would help armies that struggle against titans to have a meaniningful effect even if they can't outright kill a titan and have a moderating effect on weapon selection for titans.

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Last edited by Vaaish on Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:48 pm 
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That i expected as much, given that i don't remember the discussions back then but, was there any testing? what was tested?


There was no official testing to my knowledge. Generally anecdotal evidence from house rules. What generally carried/s more weight is that this ability to split fire was intentionally left out of the Epic rules system. House rules are fine, but nothing will go into the lists "officially".

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
Quote:
There was no official testing to my knowledge. Generally anecdotal evidence from house rules. What generally carried/s more weight is that this ability to split fire was intentionally left out of the Epic rules system. House rules are fine, but nothing will go into the lists "officially".


Just because the original designers didn't see it fit to equip the system with a general rule for Split Fire doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done at all. While I agree with the general idea of respecting the core rules, I don't think the "designer notes" are part of that. They didn't really anticipate Knight or Titan lists back in those days, which we're kind of paying for now.

That being said I have no idea if there's any way of making a Split Fire rule that makes sense, if it will be fun or if it will solve any problems that can't be solved in better ways. But I think it's worth trying out.

I'll also note that I think it is a very good idea to take an extra look on all lists where Adeptus Titanicus models could see heavy use, because there's a lot of people buying those right now. Given the flexibility of how Titans work in A-T I think it might be good to get some of that flexibility in E:A somewhat as well... (not advocating getting each titan a giant sheet of cardboard of course).

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:33 pm 
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Quote:
Every titan has plasma points equal to it's current remaining DC. Warhounds start with 3, Reavers 6, Warlords 8.
Scout titan weapons cost 1 plasma point to fire
Battle titan weapons cost 2 plasma points to fire.

So, for example, a reaver armed with 3x battle titan weapons can fire all three as per current rules. Once it takes a point of damage it would only be able to fire two weapons per turn. Compare to a reaver with 2x battle titan weapons and 1x scout weapon which could still fire all three after taking a point of damage.


I think something like this could be interesting, and might be worthwhile to look at. The advantage would be that it is less binary than the Crippling Damage rule, and kicks in straight away. It might be hard to translate into other lists like Gargants however, but might just be a question of naming it something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:21 pm 
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Re-did the Crippling Damage and Split Fire rules again, hopefully making them more readable and easier to understand. Removed the requirement for 1+ initiative.
Quote:
Crippling Damage (Playtest Version)
War Engines with a starting Damage Capacity (DC) of 6 or more that has half or less of its starting DC left suffers the following penalties :
1. Counts as having half its starting DC for determining the number of blast markers it can have before it becomes broken, and for determining how many Close Combat and/or Fire Fight dice it gets.
2. Suffers an additional -1 modifier to its armour value, and on all initiative rolls made by it or its formation.

Round all fractions down. Crippling Damage takes effect after the activation that caused it has been resolved.


Quote:
Split Fire (Experimental Playtest Version)
War Engines with a starting Damage Capacity of 6 or more may Split Fire when carrying out a Sustain Fire or Advance action.
1. Split Fire gives an additional -1 on the activation roll, so the intention to Split Fire must be declared before the roll along with the main action taken.
2. Split Fire allows each individual weapon to target a different formation (but max 3 formations in total), with all attacks suffering an additional -1 to-hit penalty if targeting 2 formations, or an additional -2 to-hit if targeting three.

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:24 pm 
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Quote:
Just because the original designers didn't see it fit to equip the system with a general rule for Split Fire doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done at all. While I agree with the general idea of respecting the core rules, I don't think the "designer notes" are part of that.


Nah it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, but it does classify it as "this is house rules territory unless we've exhausted every other possibility and then we proceed with caution". I'm very wary of changing too much with the core rules both because it can have unintended consequences and eve more so when the game designer specifically said it's not there to make the game more challenging and thoughtful.

EDIT: I should mention that I think Jervis was the one who started the AMTL list, so, if my memory isn't failing me, it's fair to say the game designer did have some concept of titan heavy lists and still chose not to include split fire special rules.

Quote:
I think something like this could be interesting, and might be worthwhile to look at. The advantage would be that it is less binary than the Crippling Damage rule, and kicks in straight away. It might be hard to translate into other lists like Gargants however, but might just be a question of naming it something else.


Yeah, I was thinking of combining it with either a point drop on hulls or increase in overall firepower to make titans more threatening. Never progressed farther than... hmm wonder how that would go.

Mechanics wise it can kick in immediately or it might not depending on the loadout. A standard warlord and reaver would only be affected after taking the third point of damage while you'd have to knock off two points on a warhound to lose access to one weapon.

Since it's player's choice, your overall damage output might not be totally affected depending on what weapons you have regardless. For example, if you have a Reaver with a PD, and 2x LB that fires everything turn 1 and takes a point of damage, you'd be able to fire both LB turn 2 same as if plasma gen rules weren't in effect. Turn three, though you'd lose access to one weapon if you'd not taken more damage.

I haven't followed gargants quite as closely but they tend to have more DC than titans so it may need to be adjusted for them to work well... or it may just balance nicely with their worse shooting. I hadn't really intended this for outside of AMTL.

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:13 pm 
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An alternative to a general Split Fire rule would be to instead make it a Character upgrade on a specific weapon. That individual weapon could always fire at whatever it wants when the titan shoots. Would limit the impact quite a lot, and make it easier to motivate a restriction to a particular list.

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 Post subject: Re: Split Fire (Titans)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:48 pm 
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What about limiting split fire to the carapace weapons, as if they were controlled by a separate fire control system. that way Reavers could fire one big gun at a different unit, and warlords could fire two.

It’s arbitrary, but it achieves the desired results.


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