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disrupt and regular hit on a model

 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
In addition to any disrupt BMs on the same unit? I find that odd, as the rule explicitly says you shouldnt apply another one if the unit dies.


No, they do not. They say you do not apply another one if the unit dies from the disrupt hit (bolded below). You would still take a BM if the unit died from a hit other than a disrupt hit, as they're allocated at the same time as regular hits.

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Certain weapons are designed to disrupt enemy formations as much as kill enemy troops. To represent this weapons noted as having the disrupt ability inflict a Blast marker on an enemy formation for each hit they inflict instead of for each kill they inflict. Note that the hits inflicted by disruptor weapons are saved for normally. Any units that fail their save are removed as casualties but do not cause a second Blast marker to be placed on the target formation.

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
In addition to any disrupt BMs on the same unit? I find that odd, as the rule explicitly says you shouldnt apply another one if the unit dies.


No, they do not. They say you do not apply another one if the unit dies from the disrupt hit (bolded below). You would still take a BM if the unit died from a hit other than a disrupt hit, as they're allocated at the same time as regular hits.

Quote:
Certain weapons are designed to disrupt enemy formations as much as kill enemy troops. To represent this weapons noted as having the disrupt ability inflict a Blast marker on an enemy formation for each hit they inflict instead of for each kill they inflict. Note that the hits inflicted by disruptor weapons are saved for normally. Any units that fail their save are removed as casualties but do not cause a second Blast marker to be placed on the target formation.
I get that and I don't disagree, I just don't think it makes sense particularly. :) It creates a very peculiar set of possible results and complicated tracking.

But lets not pretend the rule is clearly worded and all we are doing is taking the wording literally by applying anything not directly mentioned in the rule as we would normally. Notice the rule only mentions "units that fail their save". It doesn't mention those without a save, so do those units without a save hit by disrupt cause a BM for casualties as normal? No, because we make a subjective assumption based on what we think the rule means - we assume it doesn't mean failing saves at all, it means dying as a result of a hit. It is unclear precisely because that language used doesn't even relate to how normal BMs work - they are not for failing saves at all, they are at the unit level (ie casualties), not at the hit level - if they were for hits that resulted in a kill then each casualty could cause any number of BMs. And it is that ambiguity that can lead people to think that actually this rule is really trying to say "disrupt BMs are instead of casualty BMs".

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:50 pm 
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Of course, I have a lot less experience with this in the thick of battle than everyone else here, but I always thought the unit dies = no extra blast marker was an exception to prevent too many blast markers from being placed in the event a hit becomes a kill (the developers were clearly being unenthusiastic in their hopes for kills!). In the monofilament example, I can imagine the formation gets sufficiently disrupted by the sight and presence of monodeathclouds that a unit actually dying makes little difference by comparison. They're all stuck clearing fatal monofilament before they can move out regardless, after all.

It does make it more complicated to have to track disrupt hits (though I think you could just roll all saves together and track the disrupt ones with different colours/in a different pile), but I suppose that allowing the possibility of two blast markers was probably too powerful. To make a disrupt-only weapon, you could just make a weapon AP7+, I guess.

I would also steer away from saying save - units don't take a save: I think they do, they just always fail it. The - is really just shorthand for 7+. However, I can imagine confusion from people who forget that technicality! The more confusing issue to me would seem to be from how the rule interacts with multiple hit per unit formations, since a damaging hit isn't necessarily going to cause a casualty on a formation of superheavies—but that's really from loose wording that results from poor integration of multi-hit rules.

But anyways, hopefully a useful 'outsider' perspective!


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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:40 pm 
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To make a disrupt-only weapon, you could just make a weapon AP7+, I guess.

that's actually damn clever idea.
[scurries off to use in the Mechanicum supplement scenarios]

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:44 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Quote:
To make a disrupt-only weapon, you could just make a weapon AP7+, I guess.

that's actually damn clever idea.
[scurries off to use in the Mechanicum supplement scenarios]



Don't get it , why would that solve anything ??


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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:24 pm 
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For this topic and as a general weapon? Worthless. For scenario specials, especially around atmosphere/terrain uses in mechanicum: very useful

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:44 am 
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Not sure what it is meant to do though? You can still hit and kill something on a 7+. I don't understand how making a weapon just really rubbish makes it a disrupt-only weapon.

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 Post subject: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:10 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
Not sure what it is meant to do though? You can still hit and kill something on a 7+. I don't understand how making a weapon just really rubbish makes it a disrupt-only weapon.


I mean to say, you could set the hit value arbitrarily to something you can't roll on a D6, so the weapon damage itself has no possibility of causing damage. Obviously, though, the blast marker effects can still cause damage.

So, a (say) 10+ AP weapon (just to be safe in case you somehow accumulate 3 points in modification to the hit roll) can be fired at a target, which means it can still place a blast marker for a formation coming under fire. It cannot cause any casualties (you could roll the D6 if you wanted, of course) except if the blast marker would normally.

I was a bit mistaken before: if you gave this hypothetical gun the 'Disrupt' rule, you would then place a blast marker for each hit it causes, but that would mean no markers because you can't succeed in the roll to hit. So you'd need a special rule to actually replicate the Disrupt effect, and at that stage you may as well invent a weapon type that places a blast marker when a point of damage is caused in lieu of the damage occurring. E.g.:

"Psychological Weapon. When this kind of weapon would cause a point of damage from an unsaved hit, place the resulting blast marker as normal but ignore the damage caused. No models are removed or WE DC points deducted; only the blast marker is placed."

(Unfortunately, it's a little tricky to word because the damage rules wording is a bit loose). You could then use the same hit mechanisms as other weapons (including AP/AT/AA restrictions), and you could still use Disrupt. Do any weapons like that already exist?

@jimmyzimms And thank ye for the kind words! Sharing unthought-of insights in the interest of creating more interesting games is one of the best things about online fora! :D


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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:48 am 
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Right. Yeah it doesn't work :)

Interestingly though, I'm pretty sure in 3rd edition Epic 40K disrupt weapons worked exactly that way, ie they could not cause damage, only place blast markers. It was kind of annoying if you brought a load of night spinners to a game against nids but otherwise worked fine.

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 10:46 am 
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And if you had enough tiny formations with the gun to make it work, you'd just be harmfully abusing the system anyways—much more rules-cohesive to create the Psychoweap instead!

Now you mention it, I remember the E40K one, too! With that precedent, it's interesting that a similar mechanic doesn't exist in the original EA rules. Perhaps the authors were worried about an overabundance of blast marker placements, given the higher consequence of EA markers?

I feel like maybe I should take the role of the E40K apologist in the absence of someone more qualified :P


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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:15 am 
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With Tau Fire Warriors this is of importance. I’ve played it like this , After blasting off all weapons I allocate the hits and dish out the BMs for the disruptive ones straight away , then we roll save for the distrupt hits first, failed saves are flipped as to not cause any more BMs, what ever remains rolls saves for the normal hits , and here we add BMs for any failed test. So , if 6 Fire Warriors are bombarding a formation of 6 storm boys, they land 2 Distruptive hits and 3 normal hits.
2 Stormboyz in the front will take two hits each one distrupt one normal and the third boy, one normal hit.
I’ve placed 3 BMs before saves , 1 coming under fire 2 for the disruptive hits, now the Boyz roll two saves for the distrupt first, one fail, I remove him and place no further BM ( still 3 ) now the remaining two Orcs roll 2 saves for the remaining allocated normal hits ( since the third hit is on an already dead Orc) both fail , so I top it off with 2 more BMs. A total of 5 BMs and three dead Stormboyz. This should be correct.

As to what makes sense, as you say, you can come up with whatever story to back up a interpretation of the rules. But when it comes to BMs , to me it’s something that effects the formation as a whole. A dead unit is not worried about anything, the BM it causes is because the rest of the formation just saw that friendly unit be annihilated, likewise disruptive weapons have an effect on the formation as a whole in my view. So just as watching and hearing your friends die, the BMs from the disruption comes from watching and hearing your fellow soldiers panic and scurry around or whatever. And if one unit takes multiple such hits, the intensity of that spreads across the formation, and if they then survive that, but goes ahead and dies to another attack , the usual dead team mates BM kicks in.

All this rambling boils down to, that, as I fairly recently picked this wonderful game up after 15-20 years, my revisit to the rules has me understand it as it was initially said to work in the beginning of this post. According to the rules , in the very first example of this thread , I’d also place 5 BMs.
The rules here are fairly clear , even with multiple allocated hits from normal and distruption, the rule clears that up in the end, A failed save from a disruptive hit has the unit removed as a casualty causing no further BMs ( taking any normal allocated hit with it to the grave). But a disrupted unit who made the save , still stands to die to a normal hit that will inevitably cause another BM.
So the only thing that might ease up any miss interpretation could be to make it a rule or recommendation to roll saves for distrupt first, after hit allocation, and it’s a done deal I think.


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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:11 am 
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Cyguns wrote:
if 6 Fire Warriors are bombarding a formation of 6 storm boys, they land 2 Distruptive hits and 3 normal hits.
2 Stormboyz in the front will take two hits each one distrupt one normal and the third boy, one normal hit.
Tangential to the topic of interaction between disrupt and regular hits on the same unit, but I'm afraid your example doesn't work as the hit allocation isn't correct. Assuming all 6 boys are in range and LoF, then you would allocate the 5 hits to 5 separate units. You only start again at the front of the unit for macro-weapon hits.

1. Roll all the attack dice
2. Allocate all the non-MW hits, front-to-back
3. Roll all saves
4. Remove dead units
5. Allocate all the MW hits
6. Roll all (RA/inv) saves

The rules don't say anything about what order to allocate regular and disrupt hits, but they are allocated in a single sequence. Hence you cannot allocate a second hit to the front unit unless all eligible units have been allocated a hit.

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:48 am 
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Poor example , my bad, you would need 3 out of LoF to get that scenarios allocation.Lets say three are in cover and we choose to fire on the three in the open. The point is, as I figure when it does occur , that a unit dies to the distrupt, I don’t place more BMs for it even if it had a normal hit allocated to it(the normal hit doesn’t matter at that point), but if the unit saves the distrupt, and dies to the normal hit, THEN I think another BM is due.
Is that correct?

So a recommended sequence of play might then be to “roll armour saves” for distrupt first, and remove casualties, the roll the rest of the saves , and for further kills you add BMs?


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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:27 am 
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It is not what most people play, no, for a similar reason - i.e. all saves are rolled in the same round without removing any models in between.

Most people I believe interpret the rule as completely additive to the normal hit rules, i.e. you process normal hits completely normally (which can place exactly 1 BM per kill), and disrupt hits can -additionally- add 1 per hit (but not an extra one if the save from the disrupt hit is failed).

Personally I don't think it is how the designers intended it to work and the vibe I get from the rules is that it was intended to be much more simple (ie place 1 BM even if the unit survives, which would be more like "place a BM per unit hit" rather than "place a BM per hit"), but the rule isnt really clearly worried that way.

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:49 am 
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I think Im a bit unclear. reading through the whole thread a couple of times, atleast one player says he too prefers to roll distrupt hits seperatly ( I suppose using multicolored dice works as well or better).
But then its also said all failed normal saves resulting in a kill cause their regular BM as well.

So what Im wondering now is this. The units are taking multiple hits, how many BMs do we get?


Unit: Distrupt Hits : Save : Normal Hits : Save : Total blastmarkets

A:______One_______No______One_______Yes____________1

B:______One_______Yes_____One_______No_____________2

C: ______One_______No_____One_______No__________1 or 2 ? (I’d go with 1)


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