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disrupt and regular hit on a model

 Post subject: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:15 pm 
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Curious how people would play this one. A formation of four units takes three disrupt hits and two regular hits.

  • One unit is allocated a disrupt hit and regular hit
  • Two units are allocated a disrupt hit
  • One unit is allocated a regular hit.

The unit allocated both a regular and a disrupt hit fails the save on the regular hit, all other hits are saved. How many Blast markers does the formation take?

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:39 pm 
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I'm fairly sure we'd play it as five assuming normal rules (no expendable etc)

one for coming under fire, 3 for the disrupt hits, saved or otherwise, and one for the failed armour save against the normal hit

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Agreed. Disrupt is on hits, period. You'd do the math on those blast markers before you even allocate hits or roll saves.


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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:01 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Anyone playing it the other way? Just curious if a Q&A is needed.

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:03 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Curious how people would play this one. A formation of four units takes three disrupt hits and two regular hits.

  • One unit is allocated a disrupt hit and regular hit
  • Two units are allocated a disrupt hit
  • One unit is allocated a regular hit.

The unit allocated both a regular and a disrupt hit fails the save on the regular hit, all other hits are saved. How many Blast markers does the formation take?


Under the conditions stated I would also say 5BMs but if the disrupt hit was failed I believe it could be just 4 BMs if taking the disrupt rule as written

Quote:
2.2.2 Disrupt Certain weapons are designed to disrupt enemy formations as much as kill enemy troops. To represent this weapons noted as having the disrupt ability inflict a Blast marker on an enemy formation for each hit they inflict instead of for each kill they inflict. Note that the hits inflicted by disruptor weapons are saved for normally. Any units that fail their save are removed as casualties but do not cause a second Blast marker to be placed on the target formation.


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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:09 pm 
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Ya, that's what actually happened in the game. I couldn't remember anyone ever bringing the above situation up so was curious.

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:19 am 
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I would play 4. To me the disrupt rule is "place a blast marker for a kill even if the unit makes its save". As usual another rule with inconclusive wording, but the bit that Dave quoted explains the intention reasonably for me - disrupt BMs replace regular BMs, not add to them. It is also the same reasoning why, if you allocated two normal hits on a unit and failed both saves, you'd still only place one BM for it.

The one that really doesn't grok for me is the combination of grot and disrupt. People like to play that a disrupt hit on a grot places a blast marker, unless it fails its save in which case it doesn't. That makes no sense to me :)

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Grots have expendable, you don't place a BM for disrupt: http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/tourna ... expendable

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Grots have expendable, you don't place a BM for disrupt: http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/tourna ... expendable
I should have said in the UK. Expendable is an additional rule that does not exist in the rulebook, the EUK codices don't use the tournament pack of course so just use the original grot notes wording, hence doesn't apply in EUK tournaments. But yes this is exactly how I always argued it should be played.

I seem to recall we also had a thread some years ago about holofields... And I have seen different people play disrupt with void shields differently too.

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:35 pm 
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I see where the confusion is happening now. It's an order of operations thing: when do you determine BMs for Disrupt? Before or after you roll your save?

From the way the rule is worded, you place BMs for hits inflicted on the formation. So the Disrupt BMs are already applied before any hit allocation or saves.

Then after allocation it's best to roll your Disrupt saves first because no further BMs are applied if you die. In Dave's example, that normal hit would have had no effect if the Disrupt save had been failed first.

But since the Disrupt save was passed, the normal hit had to be saved too. Disrupt doesn't prevent other types of hits from placing BMs, so the casualty from the normal hit resulted in a BM as well.


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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:28 pm 
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The disrupt hit is allocated with the regular hits and saved for at the same time. It doesn't matter if you make or fail the save for the disrupt hit, if you fail a save for a normal hit you get a BM.

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:47 am 
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Dave wrote:
The disrupt hit is allocated with the regular hits and saved for at the same time. It doesn't matter if you make or fail the save for the disrupt hit, if you fail a save for a normal hit you get a BM.
In addition to any disrupt BMs on the same unit? I find that odd, as the rule explicitly says you shouldnt apply another one if the unit dies. I also wouldn't apply more than one disrupt BM to the same unit (rare as it is to get more hits than units), but can see why you might. It just seems against the main thrust of the last part of the rule, which I read to mean that disrupt BMs replace normal BMs on a unit by unit basis, as otherwise it wouldn't tell you to make sure not to apply more if the unit fails its save.

I don't think it makes sense for disrupt BMs to be awarded before allocation, given you have to keep track of where disrupt hits have been allocated in order to avoid BMs for kills. To me it is therefore implicit that BMs are awarded for hits on units not hits on formations. But yeah, I can see why you might do more than one disrupt hit on the same unit. Would you?

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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
Dave wrote:
The disrupt hit is allocated with the regular hits and saved for at the same time. It doesn't matter if you make or fail the save for the disrupt hit, if you fail a save for a normal hit you get a BM.
In addition to any disrupt BMs on the same unit? I find that odd, as the rule explicitly says you shouldnt apply another one if the unit dies.

I think you misinterpreted the rule:
Quote:
2.2.2 Disrupt Certain weapons are designed to disrupt enemy formations as much as kill enemy troops. To represent this weapons noted as having the disrupt ability inflict a Blast marker on an enemy formation for each hit they inflict instead of for each kill they inflict. Note that the hits inflicted by disruptor weapons are saved for normally. Any units that fail their save are removed as casualties but do not cause a second Blast marker to be placed on the target formation.

From the bolded context this only seems to apply to saves taken in the course of working out Disrupt hits. It doesn't make these units immune to taking a BM from being killed by another weapon.

Kyrt wrote:
I also wouldn't apply more than one disrupt BM to the same unit (rare as it is to get more hits than units), but can see why you might. It just seems against the main thrust of the last part of the rule, which I read to mean that disrupt BMs replace normal BMs on a unit by unit basis, as otherwise it wouldn't tell you to make sure not to apply more if the unit fails its save.

I don't think it makes sense for disrupt BMs to be awarded before allocation, given you have to keep track of where disrupt hits have been allocated in order to avoid BMs for kills. To me it is therefore implicit that BMs are awarded for hits on units not hits on formations. But yeah, I can see why you might do more than one disrupt hit on the same unit. Would you?

Again straight from the rule:
Quote:
...weapons noted as having the disrupt ability inflict a Blast marker on an enemy formation for each hit they inflict instead of for each kill they inflict

It's pretty clear the formation takes a BM for each Disrupt hit, full stop. You only track which units are allocated Disrupt hits so that you don't double-book those casualties for another BM.

So if you had 4 units in a target formation and only 1 was visible to the shooting formation, and 3 Disrupt hits were scored, they would all be allocated to the only visible unit. Whether that lone unit failed a save or not, the target formation would take 4 BMs and be broken: 1 for coming under fire, 3 for Disrupt hits, zero for casualties.

It makes sense when you think of the Disrupt rule as a psychological or suppressing fire rule. Weight of fire from these weapons is more devastating than actual damage and the way we can track that is hits, period, no matter how they're allocated.


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 Post subject: Re: disrupt and regular hit on a model
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:00 pm 
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You may think it is misinterpreting, as you are inferring something from the context ("it seems"). For other people thinking about what "makes sense", a different conclusion is possible. I'm saying it is ill defined, so is somewhat unclear whether the "don't place BMs for failed saves" is truly meant to apply to the disrupt hits, or if that sentence (which was added later) is a clarification on how disrupt is meant to be merged into the normal rules (where you would have to decide how to handle normal hits). Otherwise this sentence is superfluous and the word "instead" does a perfectly good job. Basically I think you have a choice how to read it, whether disrupt hits follow the normal BM rules except they are for hits and not kills (which would mean it is units that take disrupt hits not formations, hence those same units don't take additional BMs should they fail one of their saves), or if it describes the allocation of disrupt BMs entirely separately from the standard BM rules (which means you don't infer anything at all about how normal hits work with disrupt ones, and require the players to track things in a much more complex way). You can take a view on it but it's still a view.

On the multiple disrupt hits, as I said I can see how you conclude this, it's perfectly reasonable from the wording, I just think it also "makes sense" that a disrupt weapon would only be more disruptive if it affected more of the formation. ie units are disrupted by monofilament falling on their heads, and the more units affected the more disrupted the formation is. More monofilament falling on the same unit making the rest of the formation run away? Meh. Point is you can always make a story about what it is supposed to represent but it isn't clear so it's not a case of right vs wrong.

I'm not even sure it has ever come up in a game for me though as usually there are more units than hits, often because many disrupt weapons are also barrage.

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Last edited by Kyrt on Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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