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Titans, shields and TK weapons

 Post subject: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:10 pm 
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Q. What is the process when using TK weapons against a shielded titan
A. Taken from 3.2.5 Titan Killer weapons
Quote:
When allocating Titan killer hits that may cause multiple points of damage, roll for damage immediately after allocating the hit. The War Engine counts as having been allocated a number of hits equal to the damage rolled. This is solely for purposes of allocation. Damage is applied as normal, only after all hits have been allocated.
(My emphasis)

And the FAQ on 5.4.1 Imperial void shields
Q. How many void shields go down if a Titan is hit by a Titan Killer weapon that causes multiple points of damage?
A: One per each point of damage, with any left over being allocated to the unit.


So, the full process is
- Fire TK weapon
- For each TK shot that hits, allocate TK shot to the next unit in target formation and then determine number of TK hits caused by the shot
- Where a unit is shielded, reduce number of TK hits by available shields
- Apply remaining TK hits to target

Note
Eldar Holofields work slightly differently in that they can cause the TK weapon to miss. However if the TK weapon hits, then the target suffers the TK hits. So the Eldar process is
- Fire TK weapon
- For each TK shot, take Holofield save. If TK shot is not saved, determine number of TK hits
- apply TK hits to target


Last edited by Ginger on Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:38 pm 
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Correct!

Now explain NetEA living meetal and MW and TK shots for me!

- Kendall


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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:27 pm 
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NetEA Necron Living metal rule is as follows:-
Quote:
Living Metal
Units made of living metal receive a reinforced armor saving throw against normal weapons, or weapons with lance or macro-weapon. In addition, their save is not reduced by sniper. Any titan killer attacks are automatically reduced to titan killer (1) when resolving hits against units with living metal, and living metal units are permitted a single armor save.
So a unit with Living Metal has a form of Reinforced armour. Thus it
- Makes a single (RA) save against MW or Lance
- Reduces any TK(n) hit to TK(1)


The E-UK version of Living Metal is effectively the same (granting a 4+ 'invulnerable save'). However against TK shots it grants an 'Invulnerable save' against each point of TK damage. So a TK(D3) shot would cause up to 3x TK damage, each of which could be saved.


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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:11 am 
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What do you mean by a "single (RA) save"?

Also to be clear on your first post, you roll for the number of hits to allocate for each TK hit as you go along. The number you roll determines how many hits the "next" target unit has been allocated, and thus for war engines which unit is allocated the next TK hit.

E.g. I fire two deathstrikes at a pair of Warhounds. I get two hits. The first hit is allocated to this front Warhound. I roll a 2 for damage, so it counts as having been allocated 2 hits. Since the titan is DC3, I allocate the next TK hit to the same front Warhound. I then roll a 5 for damage. Thus the first TK hit takes down 2 shields on the front titan, and the second TK hit destroys it. The rear titan is unharmed.

Conversely if I'd have rolled a 5 and then a 2, the front titan would be destroyed and the rear would have lost 2 shields.

(I know you know this Ginger as you explained it on the AMTL thread, this is just for posterity of this thread as it read to me like you always allocate the next hit to a different unit).

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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:06 pm 
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I, for one, welcome clear and explanatory posts like this one. Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:35 pm 
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Hiya Kryt,
I do not agree with your interpretation of the rules although we have previously used this method.

My interpretation is that there is a distinct difference between his and damage. If you used your example and fired two deathstrikes at two warhounds and rolled 2 his (highly unlikely in my experience with deathstrikes) you would allocate both hits first, to the lead warhound, and then roll for damage once all hits are allocated.

And i believe that you would need to load the second hit onto the first warhound even if it had one dc left, as WE need to be allocated hits up to their starting dc.

Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:56 am 
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LoL, this is why I took this out of the AMTL tweak thread ;)
If you read the pdf rules, section 3.2.5 (quoted above) says that each TK hit is rolled for immediately, and the gameplay example in the rules then demonstrates the process outlined by Kyrt and I.

If a player fires both Deathstrike missiles at a formation he would check the damage caused by the first missile and allocate it before moving on to the other missile. You are correct that the first missile might not cause sufficient hits to exceed the DC of the first unit, in which case the second missile would be applied to the first unit as well.

The point is that TK shots are even more powerful than MW shots, causing multiple hits worth of damage. So we need to work out the size of each TK shot to allocate the group of TK hits according to the hit allocation process.

I might add, this is why a TK shot that hits a formation of 'standard' units only kills one unit rather than multiple units.


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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:34 am 
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Yes, how else would you explain the quote from 3.2.5?
Quote:
roll for damage immediately after allocating the hit. The War Engine counts as having been allocated a number of hits equal to the damage rolled. This is solely for purposes of allocation. Damage is applied as normal, only after all hits have been allocated.


Yes there is a difference between hits and damage, but it explicitly says that the the number of hits for allocation purposes is equal to the damage.

I guess it could be a bit confusing because we tend to refer to it as "rolling for damage" but really it is "rolling to see how many hits are inflicted". Since TK weapons negate saves this is a more subtle difference than it would otherwise be - if they didn't, you would roll for "number of hits" before rolling the saves against each hit. Like you do now for invulnerable saves.

Allocating the second hit to the first Warhound because its DC was not exceeded is exactly the example I gave, it just depends how much damage you roll as to whether this happens. But yes, a Warhound with 1 DC remaining still needs to be allocated 3 hits before allocating hits to the next nearest unit. And equally, 2 shields doesn't increase that to 5.

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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:34 am 
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So the process you are advocating would be:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Assign 1st hit.
3. Roll for damage.
4. Allocate damage.
5. Assign 2nd hit to a viable target (Same target if it is still alive).
6. Roll for damage.
7. Allocate damage.
8. Repeat.


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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:02 am 
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I have been playing:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Allocate all hits.
3. Roll for damage.
4. Allocate damage onto target.


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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:25 am 
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Is this correct:
Deathstrike 1 hits the warhound, rolling a 4 damage. It survives on one Dc and is fully allocated. The second deathstrike will have to hit warhound #2


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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:04 pm 
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JimXII wrote:
So the process you are advocating would be:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Assign 1st hit.
3. Roll for damage.
4. Allocate damage.
5. Assign 2nd hit to a viable target (Same target if it is still alive).
6. Roll for damage.
7. Allocate damage.
8. Repeat.


In principle yes. However I would amend this slightly as follows

1. Roll to hit.
2. Assign 1st hit.
3. Roll for the number of TK hits
4. Allocate this group of TK hits
5. Assign 2nd hit to a viable target (Same target if it's DC has not been exceeded ).
6. Roll for number of TK hits
7. Allocate TK hits
8. Repeat.


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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:06 pm 
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JimXII wrote:
Is this correct:
Deathstrike 1 hits the warhound, rolling a 4 damage. It survives on one Dc and is fully allocated. The second deathstrike will have to hit warhound #2
Spot on :D
The fact that the first DS missile caused 4x TK hits means that the first WH (DC3) has been fully allocated so the next DS missile will strike the other WH.

Note this process still applies where the WH is damaged, because the allocation process evaluates the DC not the remaining strength of the WE / titan. So in an extreme case where WH#1 has 1 point remaining but DS#1 only causes 1x TK hit, DS#2 would be applied to WH#1 (even though it is notionally dead) because we are still in the hit allocation process; hit resolution occurs after all hits have been allocated.


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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:34 pm 
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+1 to everything Ginger said

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 Post subject: Re: Titans, shields and TK weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:00 pm 
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Related to shield but not TK, this came up at WOTT

Titan with 1 DC and 1 shield left take a point of damage in the end phase from a critical hit table roll. We have always played that this is a point of damage not a hit so the DC is lost not the shield. This was what I/Dptdexys rules

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