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Flyers question.

 Post subject: Flyers question.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:20 am 
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So a Thunder hawk lands, marines pop out pew pew and win combat, now the 2 formations are separate right? what happens when the Thunderhawk receives blast markers equal to its DC and there are enemy units within 15 cm of it? Broken and destroyed? Because if i have it right, if there are no enemies around they just keep getting blast markers but don't break right? it just adds to the activation attempt in future turns?

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 Post subject: Re: Flyers question.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:54 am 
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Once landed and the engage is finished the T/hawk counts as a normal WE.

It can still be broken as normal, when it breaks it would take a point of damage per enemy unit within 15cm
as 3.2.4 states.


Quote:
A broken war engine is assumed to have a number of Blastmarkers equal to its starting damage capacity for all rules purposes. If there are any enemy units within 15cms of the war engine after it makes a withdrawal then it suffers one extra point of damage (no save allowed) for each enemy unit that is within 15cms. Additional hits caused by losing an assault or receiving Blast markers while broken cause one point of damage each. Roll for critical hits from these extra hits as you would normally


If it breaks and there are no enemy units within 15cm then it acts like a normal WE, it takes BM until it breaks (4 in the T/hawks case because of TSKNF) when it flies off in the end phase it would have 4 BM (plus any more it picks up on its disengage move).

losing an assault still auto destroys it wether there are enemy within 15cm are not.


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 Post subject: Re: Flyers question.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:46 am 
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It's actually very hard for a thunderhawk to break after winning an air assault though, due to ATSKNF. BMs are cleared after activation so the maximum BMs it can get on approach is 2 (1 for CAP, 1 for ground flak), and only 1 for damage either during approach or assault. Any more BMs in assault would come from damage and this would destroy it anyway. I think the only way it can break after winning the assault is via overwatch BMs, and even then it depends which part of the combined formation you allocate it to.

So almost always this happens at some later point in the turn, and there is nothing special about a landed thunderhawk then - it's just an immobile war engine.

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 Post subject: Re: Flyers question.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:09 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
. BMs are cleared after activation so the maximum BMs it can get on approach is 2 (1 for CAP, 1 for ground flak), and only 1 for damage either during approach or assault.


Any flyer only takes 1 BM for flak on the way in for being shot at by Flak. same on the way out.
from 4.2.7
Quote:
Any aircraft formation that suffers any attacks (from ground flak or being intercepted) receives one Blast marker for ‘coming under fire’. The formation can only receive one Blast marker during the approach move and another Blast marker during the disengagement move, no matter how many different units from however many different formations attack it.


Flyers can also pick up a BM for each time it is intercepted whilst still on the table after it has finished its activation and before it disengages in the end phase.


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 Post subject: Re: Flyers question.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:33 pm 
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I thought you might say that :) Funnily enough thats what I always play at home but have had a different experience at tournaments, ie that CAP doesn't count in the "coming under fire during the approach move" section but as a separate action like intercept. Hence I say 2 is the max. But then I've also had opponents claim the opposite, ie that intercept can't give extra blast markers in addition to those in the approach phase because the rules say aircraft can ONLY take 1 BM in approach and another on disengage, explicitly applying this to intercepts in the RAW. The implication being that attacks at other times don't place BMs. True by a certain reading of the rules! TBH the only thing that is a constant when it comes to epic seems to be that people will say anything when they think you don't know the rules :)

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 Post subject: Re: Flyers question.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:16 pm 
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the air rules are quite badly written, if you read them through it says that flak only fires after aircraft *complete* their approach move, which RAW means that aircraft can't actually gain blast markers during their approach move....

At both EpicUK tournaments and friendly games I have always played that you take a single blast marker for coming under fire during approach, whether for CAP or flak (but in the case of both, only a single BM) however when they complete their action they are no longer making an approach move, and will take BMs for coming under fire from every subsequent formation that intercepts it, otherwise with the ability to jink freely it makes intercepts really quite bad

from the rules and FAQ it is implied the limits are to prevent gamey situations where flying through a horde of wildly inaccurate flakkwagons is worse than taking fire from fewer, more accurate shots from marine hunters or eldar firestorms, air assaults would almost be impossible against armies which could spam cheap, low quality flak

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 Post subject: Re: Flyers question.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:47 am 
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Yep they are especially bad, there are loads of other ambiguities like the aforementioned auto-destroy for losing assault. Or when you resolve flak attacks vs when you measure direction for suppression. "Defensive" AA fire from airborne flyers other than the one being attacked. When exactly does a landing flyer become a ground formation - before or after troops embark? Do you check for broken as soon as it becomes a ground unit, and do the units inside count towards its break point in all circumstances? Can you use an SC inside the aircraft to re roll its failed initiative? And so on.

But most of all they just lack the elegance of the main rules and don't have the same flow, so aren't so intuitive. You're always going to have problems when you have two different blast marker systems that you have to merge at some point, two shooting mechanics, two movements etc.

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