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What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.

 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:01 pm 
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On a related note, for woodlands it's worth bearing in mind that most gamers use trees that are massively under-scaled. A mature Oak should be around 80-100mm tall and a Beech 80-120mm or more, and that's without getting into tall trees like Douglas Fir that could hit 250mm compared to 6mm infantry.

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:03 am 
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Onyx, I feel like I should point out something you might be missing about what people are responding to. Totally aside from whichever way we all like to play, how you present it is a factor that you don't seem to acknowledge, and it is antagonising people.

If you post a one-sided view of something controversial, simply stating that you didn't intend it to be controversial doesn't make it less so. Nor does it shield you or your argument from criticism. Similarly if you post some quotes that try to demonstrate why someone is wrong, simply saying "I'm not trying to say you're wrong" is only going to wind people up further. Sorry for paraphrasing, I'm trying to be brief. I know it's hard to resist making your own points, but making a point is one thing and claiming you aren't really trying to make that point is another.

To use an analogy, if I say:
"I'm not trying to saying democrats are better than republicans or anything, but studies have shown that democrats have higher IQs on average. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just putting the facts out there to help people make up their own mind."

That IQ part really is true - an "undeniable fact". But:
a) It doesn't stop it being antagonistic, because there is clearly more nuance to the debate. I know that but am deliberately representing only part of it.
b) Nobody is just going to blindly accept my stated intentions for posting it as being true. I included it to try to misrepresent my own bias as neutrality. It's passive aggressive.

(Sorry republicans!)

Maybe you genuinely don't realise you're doing it, it's common enough on forums that you might simply adopt that style by default because on the face of it it looks unaggressive. But it can cause these silly debates about whether my little man can see your little man to get needlessly antagonistic.

Maybe we do need a "terrain explanation thread" (although the topic has been done to death so I'm not convinced myself). By now though you can probably agree that it should not be written by someone who strongly believes in one side over another.

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:53 am 
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Good post Kyrt!

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:59 pm 
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Yeah, i agree. I think enough has probably been said on the subject now to be honest.

There are a couple of choices you can make and several groups have made and that's about it really... As long as you and your opponent agree on that choice up front you're golden; line of sight over intervening terrain and related to that, whether being on higher ground lets you see over anything - as far as I see it that just about sums it up...

May be a time to lock and sticky (or maybe not?!) this before it we get into the realms of waffle...


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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:01 pm 
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before? ;)

Actually this does have some good content. Some pruning and a lock and putting it in either a sticky or linked form a sticky isn't a bad idea

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:10 pm 
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I agree, good post Kyrt, but I think there's something worth adding.
If you have a look at the thread this terrain discussion spun out of (squat overlords) and some of the pretty strong terms bandied around (I mean, bordering on actual insults), it looks to me like Onyx is trying to exercise quite a lot of patience and diplomacy in his posts.

Therefore I think the post Kyrt wrote and the points he made are worth keeping in mind by everyone involved. It applies to people on all sides of the terrain discussion, and definitely not to just one person.

And I'll try keep the advice in mind for my own posting too :D


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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:19 pm 
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Hena wrote:
Since this is so controversial, here is how we play. Each area terrain is as tall as tallest bit.


Same here, that's my personal preference.

Part of the problem appears to be the contradictions within the written rules - while the rules effectively say in several places to use TLoS, they also say that drawing LoF into/through a terrain piece does not use TLoS.

Quote:
Buildings, rubble, woods, fortifications and the like don't block the line of fire to or from units that are in the terrain itself unless the line of fire passes through more than 10cms of the terrain feature (i.e., you can shoot 10cms “into” a terrain feature, but the line of fire is still blocked to units on the other side).


So you don't use TLoS within the terrain piece or for shooting into or out of it. What's unclear is how the second clause about LoF being blocked to units on the other side interacts with high up units being able to see over terrain.

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:31 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
I agree, good post Kyrt, but I think there's something worth adding.
If you have a look at the thread this terrain discussion spun out of (squat overlords) and some of the pretty strong terms bandied around (I mean, bordering on actual insults), it looks to me like Onyx is trying to exercise quite a lot of patience and diplomacy in his posts.

Therefore I think the post Kyrt wrote and the points he made are worth keeping in mind by everyone involved. It applies to people on all sides of the terrain discussion, and definitely not to just one person.

And I'll try keep the advice in mind for my own posting too :D

Agreed

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:24 am 
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Just to throw it out there we usually abstract LOF from hills by applying a 15cm 'shadow' behind LOF blocking scenery.

EG a unit on a hill would be able to see 10cm into a particular wood and would be able to see anything more than 15cm behind the wood.

Between units where both are on ground level we simply play that everything blocks LOF for everything as its simpler.


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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:46 pm 
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Cleared up the thread to its original stated purpose

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