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What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.

 Post subject: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:33 am 
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PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE POST you may learn something new :)

Just for clarity on the terrain situation, here is what the Epic Armageddon rules say about it:
Quote:
Design Concept: Terrain Conventions
It is possible to have all kinds of arguments about whether terrain partially or fully blocks the line of fire to a target. Because of this, you should discuss the terrain on your gaming table with your opponent before a game starts and make sure you both agree on how it will work with regard to this and any of the other terrain rules. However, the -1 to hit modifier should be generously applied, and if in any doubt it should be counted rather than ignored.


Quote:
1.8.2 Cover to Hit Modifiers
Units that are in terrain that is tall enough to at least partially obscure them from an attacker’s view receive a -1 to hit modifier when being shot at (see 1.9.5). The to hit modifier also applies if intervening terrain obscures the target partially from view.


Quote:
Example of play: Terrain
The Shadowsword has moved into a hull down position behind a low ridge. From this position it counts as being in cover against attacks from the Ork formation with the Battlefortress and Buggies attacking it from the front, and so they will suffer the -1 to hit modifier. However, the Ork Gunwagons have manoeuvred to a position where the ridge does not block their line of fire, and so they do not suffer the penalty.


Quote:
1.8.4 Terrain Effects
Hills
Units on hills will benefit from better lines of sight to enemy units, as they will be high enough to see over some terrain features (see 1.9.2, Line of Fire). This aside, units on hills count as being in open ground (or whatever other type of terrain they occupy that is also on the hill, such as roads, woods or buildings).


Quote:
1.9.2 Who May Shoot
In order to shoot, a unit must be in range and have a line of fire to at least one unit in the target formation, and must not be suppressed.

Line Of Fire
The line of fire is a straight line drawn from the shooting unit to one unit in the target formation. The line of fire is blocked by terrain features such as buildings, hills, woods, etc. Weapons higher up can often see over any terrain that is lower down. Buildings, rubble, woods, fortifications and the like don’t block the line of fire to or from units that are in the terrain itself unless the line of fire passes through more than 10cms of the terrain feature (i.e., you can shoot 10cms into a terrain feature, but the line of fire is still blocked to units on the other side). The only units that can block the line of fire are war engines (see 3.0). Other units do not block the line of fire for friend or foe.
See the above quotes for clarification on the 10cm into terrain rule.

Quote:
Shooting Conventions
The following principles apply to shooting:

Design Concept: Measuring Ranges
You must decide with your opponent how you will measure the range between two models during a game. The method used by the author (and the default you should use if you can’t agree to an alternative) is that a weapon is in range if any bit of the attacking weapon is within range of any part of the target model (or at least one of the models on a target stand).

Lines of Fire
In Epic, the terrain and the models are assumed to be the same scale, so if you want to check a difficult line of sight between two units, all you need to do is bend over and get a model’s eye view to see if they are in each others line of fire.

Pre-measuring
You must decide with your opponent if you are allowed to pre-measure distances during a game of Epic, or if you must declare charges or shooting attacks before measuring. For example, you must decide if you can measure to make sure a unit is within range of the enemy before deciding who it will shoot at, etc. Each method has its own distinct advantages, which boil down to pre-measuring being more precise and tactical, and not allowing pre-measuring being more characterful and exciting. If you cannot agree on which method to use then use the author’s method, which is to allow pre-measuring.


This is exactly what the rules say about terrain.

The FAQ wrote:
1.9.2: Who May Shoot.
Q: What blocks line of sight (other than obvious terrain)?
a) Enemy models
b) War engines (friend or foe)
c) Friendly models other than your detachment - group - whatever
d) Stands within your own detachment.
e) Ruins
f) Shoot at whatever’s in range and not blocked by hills or large buildings?
g) I misunderstood something...
A: The answer is b, e & f. Terrain blocks the LOF, units don’t.


We get many questions about terrain and this thread is there to help players find an answer for themselves.

There is no agenda or bias.
If you play a variation of these rules that is fine. No one is trying to tell you that you're wrong. This is just a game and these are just the rules as written.

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:37 am 
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For someone who may have missed something vital, what's the contention? That area terrain shouldn't be infinitely high?

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:48 am 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
For someone who may have missed something vital, what's the contention?

From my lay-position I think this is a refined philological discussion with hermeneutic undertones in a post-Barthes context which seems to hinge on the interpretation of 'interpretation' in exegesis. I believe one party is pursuing a line of reasoning based around the philosophy of language/logic of the early-mid 20th century, while the other espouses a more post-modern view. As has been seen with similar debates in other fields of study, the reconciliation of such divergent standpoints is often difficult.

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:59 am 
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You went full Barthes. Never go full Barthes. I may have to Sontag you. :geek

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:34 pm 
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Hahaha!! Awesome!!

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:14 pm 
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I don't agree with Onyx on terrain. But i agree with everything he's said in this thread and the squats thread.


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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:36 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
For someone who may have missed something vital, what's the contention? That area terrain shouldn't be infinitely high?


No, they're just discussing it before their game starts.

Quote:
Design Concept: Terrain Conventions
It is possible to have all kinds of arguments about whether terrain partially or fully blocks the line of fire to a target. Because of this, you should discuss the terrain on your gaming table with your opponent before a game starts and make sure you both agree on how it will work with regard to this and any of the other terrain rules. However, the -1 to hit modifier should be generously applied, and if in any doubt it should be counted rather than ignored.


Quote:
Tabletop miniatures wargaming is not an exact science. One person’s line of sight is another’s blocked line of fire.

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:00 pm 
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I didn't realise what the difference was until I read these posts so thanks for this. TBH I can't see it making a lot of difference.

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:04 pm 
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Our standing policy is not to manage those holes you speak of, but rather make the community aware of them and address them in the 5-min warm up. Unless everyone's in the community is in agreement, it gets tossed on the 5-min pile.

That statement aside, no one's speaking for us here. It's two guys having an argument on the internet.

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:20 pm 
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From a practical, constructive point of view, would anyone be interested in a photographic guide to 'Default Terrain Interpretation in Area A' and 'Default Terrain Interpretation in Area B'?

Like a tourist's guide for when playing in other areas, or even just to speed up the 5 minute warm up in your own.

Nothing fancy, nothing controversial, just basic things like

Area A: Epic UK etc - The predator cannot draw line of fire to the warhound, because it is on the other side of a terrain piece.
Image

Area B: Australia etc - The predator can draw line of fire to the warhound, because weapons higher up can often see over any terrain that is lower down.
Image

(That's a very basic example)
I'd be happy to help with something like that, although it would also need a volunteer or two from another area to make sure theirs is represented accurately.


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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:00 pm 
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This might help, with some EUK terrain.

Assume the Stormserpent to the left hand side is on Overwatch with the Iron Warriors engaging the Falcons/Firestorms & intermingled second Stormserpents.

From the EUK point of view the Overwatch Stormserpent can not see any of the Iron Warriors as there is either more than 10cm of 'ruins' in the way or the unit in btb contact is on the other side of the terrain where it juts out.

Note also the terrain block on the actual terrain area. The lower piece never moves, but the 'fluffy' terrain piece can be moved to get the best placement of units whilst not trying to balance/prop over walls etc. With the moveable nature of the terrain piece it is not possible to take direct LoS view except around the edges of the terrain where a set square works.

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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:32 pm 
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Just to add to this debate, from the official FAQ

Quote:
1.9.2: Who May Shoot.
Q: What blocks line of sight (other than obvious terrain)?
a) Enemy models
b) War engines (friend or foe)
c) Friendly models other than your detachment - group - whatever
d) Stands within your own detachment.
e) Ruins
f) Shoot at whatever’s in range and not blocked by hills or large buildings?
g) I misunderstood something...
A: The answer is b, e & f. Terrain blocks the LOF, units don’t.


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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:36 pm 
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I don't think there'd be much debate over Tim's example as is. I'm guessing the disagreement would be if the storm serpent was an imperator Titan or sat on top of a high cliff - epic uk would still say los was blocked to anything on the far side of those ruins right? I guess you'd also get into some debate over passing through 10cm of terrain from the point of view of the firer but it's the point about drawing los to the far side that really gets the juices flowing. That's about the crux of it... Hills, for example, are basically non area terrain los blockers, as opposed to vantage points to see over intervening terrain.

The castle assault players pack seems like a fair compromise to be honest. Different levels of terrain block an increasing number of DC points, and lines of fire are alway reciprocal.

While I can see how the epic uk approach came about and I have no doubt that is how the game was play tested I have to say that before joining this forum a few years back, with only the printed rules in front of me, the thought of infinitely high terrain, or terrain that can't be seen over by sitting on top of a hill would never have crossed my mind. I can't see anything in the rules that would suggest that, unless you disregard anything about "weapons higher... yadda, yadda". To be honest I'd even be happy to take the epic uk approach but for the redundancy of hills.


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 Post subject: Re: What the Epic Armageddon rules say about terrain.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:34 pm 
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The East coast club, which hosts Castle assault started with infinetly high terrain, the same as EpicUK tournaments, we found this to be pretty rubbish in the end, and disadvantaged a lot of WE and didn't make a lot of sense.
That's why we play "JUST IN OUR CLUB" the Different levels of terrain block an increasing number of DC points, and lines of fire are always reciprocal - all of the rest of how we play out terrain can be seen in our players packs (Also each table has a laminated photo detailing how each bit of terrain on the table is to be interperated)

Cancon 2016 was played with the rules as stated by Onyx, the rules as written in the rulebook.


On another note, we know that this conversation will never have a real result. EpicUK will play their way and claim it's better. People will play the book and claim it's the way. Other groups will come up with a compromise and claim they have fixed it all. But we will never have a standard.


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