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The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread

 Post subject: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:26 am 
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Primarch has so many interesting ideas (and I some average ones :P) that it seemed a good idea to create a thread to discuss these in! What wonders will we uncover?

As a starting point, I am quite interested in the choice between cubic D6s (practical for transport but limited results) and higher polyhedrals (of which D10s are perhaps the most convenient for numbers).

Turn order mechanics are also a tricky bugbear for me.

Anyways, let the discussions begin!

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:04 am 
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I like D10's in concept because they mesh easily with percentage-based stats/systems.

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:36 pm 
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Hi!

After 28 years of playing epic in its various incarnations, needless to say i find the mechanics of any of the games quite stale and dated.

For some time I have been tinkering with ideas for my own system. Before going into rules mechanics I think die mechanics are a much more important step since the rules you make hang on that decision.

For the longest time single die mechanics have dominated rule sets, particularly the d6.

I understand in the old days a d6 was thee cheapest thing a manufacturer could put into a game. But this isn't the 1980's anymore. Polyhedrals are not only cheap to make, but even custom dice can be had quite easily.

The simple truth is the d6 is inadequate for modern rulesets due to a lack of granularity of the 1 through 6 probability it provides.

Usually you wind up adding all sorts of rules to cover for that single d6, in the form of modifiers and other things to add the granularity it lacks.

So how to fix that?

My first idea was to add another d6, or make rolls based on 2d6. in fact I started a project using that.

However after some tinkering, I agree with Magnus (the creator of the new net epic points system) that the probability spread of the 2d6 adds more mathematical issues for a balanced points system than one die.

Thus I agree with Evil and Chaos that the d10 is better for a one die system.

However I would contend that the d20 is even batter, since its still "decimal" and the probability is 5% per "die pip" versus 10% for the d10, making it much more granular.

All this said I know favor "none of the above".

As I have grown older, I have grown to dislike one die systems and their dependence on modifiers, tables, etc for results. No matter how simple, it still means remembering, looking up and calculations to figure a result.

I like to design things based on human nature. Usually we like things that yield results upon simple observation (at a glance if you will) with no modifiers, tables, etc to look up/use. Roll dice know result immediately.

The other part of human nature is we like to feel "involved" in the most "critical" parts of the game (rolling to hit and defend against hits for example). This leads to more engagement, less distraction and faster pace since there is no "off player' while the other player is doing stuff.

Through the use of polyhedral dice a die mechanic that may accomplish this can be formulated.

The second leg of this is what is known as "die shifts". Which is the concept that an advantageous circumstance lets you use a higher die type than your base die type and a disadvantageous circumstance forces you to use a lower die type than your base type.

The die shift progression is: d4-d6-d8-d10-d12-d20

Its simple and intuitive since the larger the polyhedral die the greater chance there is to succeed due to the higher value that can be rolled.

The combination of using polyhedral dice and the die shift presents a powerful die mechanic that can inherently absorb many rules that are usually added to single die with modifiers.

Having laid out the die mechanic, I'll lay out the basic rules mechanic based from this.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:45 pm 
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So Polyversal then? ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:22 pm 
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Hi!

The rules mechanics I have tinkered with based on polyhedral dice with shifts handles some basic things like this:

1. To hit and save mechanics

One of the additional things I don't like about single die systems its the inability to differentiate "evasion" (the ability to avoid being hit) from "armor protection" (the ability to absorb/deflect damage).

That is why in most single die systems there is little difference in the armor saves between infantry and vehicles or even between units of the same type. Nor can it easily handle distinctions between a nimble low armor target (high evasion, low armor) and ponderous high armor (low evasion, high armor) targets. usually needing extra rolls, modifers or tables to acheive this.

In our polyhedral system one roll is all that is needed to ascertain "to hit", penetration and a save.

Each unit would have a minimum of an Evasion value (EV), Armor value (AV), Fire Control (to hit) (FC) and Penetration Value (PV).

Let make two hypothetical elements.

A tank with EV: d6; AV: d10; FC: d8; PV: d8

and

An anti-tank infantry squad with EV: d10; AV: d4; FC: d6; PV: d8

All fire resolution is handled by the attacker rolling his FC and PV die and the defender will roll his EV and AV die at the same time.

All you need to do is compare values "at a glance" to know what happened.

If the firing players FC is equal or greater to the defending player's EV a "hit" is scored. If the PV is greater than the AV then the hit has penetrated and eliminated the defender (equivalent to failed armor save).

To make things even more easier and intuitive you can color code the dice (red for FC, blue for PV, green for EV and yellow for AV). The exact color do not matter. Any can be assigned. Human nature makes associations by colors far easier than remembering modifiers/values).

Using our fictitious elements, lets say the tank attacks the anti-tank infantry and the tank rolls: FC: (6) d8; PV: (3) d8 and the infantry: EV: (6) d10; AV: (2) d4

Since the tanks FC was equal to the infantry's Ev a hit is scored. The infantry element is eliminated since the tanks PV exceeds the infantry's AV.

All this is known with one die roll from each player rolling the appropriate dice type.

How would die shifts impact this?

Lets say the infantry is in cover in our example. It could be deemed that the cover is "soft" and they get an advantageous die shift increasing the infantry EV die to a d12 (one step up from d10).

Lets also say on that roll the player rolled a 7 (instead of a six), that would mean the tank missing due to the cover.

Or lets say the infantry is caught mired in a swamp or other difficult terrain meaning they are easier to hit. This could be represented as either an advantageous shift for the firing tank element or a disadvantageous shift for the infantry's evasion (it would amount to the same thing).

Note that this is a very simple "black and white" use of this system. You could attack many additional interpretations to the die roll combinations if desired. For example a "miss" with a successful penetration roll could mean intervening cover is destroyed, or a hit with no penetration can cause a "suppression effect" where the FC of the suppressed element can be impacted.

The permutations of this are many and serve to eliminate extraneous rules since the die themselves can tell you what happened depending on the combination rolls.

This system can be applied to all aspects of the game (morale, close combat, etc). I have some working systems for most of these.

Stat generation should be the last step since a sound die mechanic tied into the rule mechanic basically make the stats easy to do.

Of course, a points system for this is a topic onto itself. ;)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:23 pm 
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Blip wrote:
So Polyversal then? ;-)


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Hi!

I have not read those rules (at least not in recent memory).

But if that is what its based on I will have to read it now. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:08 pm 
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That'a a nice system, though for big games a bit slow I would think P?
I.e. with paired roles you can't just chuck buckets of dice for each large unit firing at another, but have to resolve each shot individually?

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:18 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Blip wrote:
So Polyversal then? ;-)


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Hi!

I have not read those rules (at least not in recent memory).

But if that is what its based on I will have to read it now. :)

Primarch


Its not published yet, but as a kickstarter backer i have seen a near final draft. Tbh, i only skimmed it and without sitting down to play it with some unit stats it didn't stay in my head well, but it definitely used the shifting dice mechanic to provide modifiers. Not sure if it worked like Ambush Alley (etc) where success is a consistent 4+ and the dice change around that.

I'm definitely looking forward to giving the final thing a play though. "Someone" needs to stat up the 40k universe for the system if Ken hasn't already.

You need to tap up Ken after your Meeples and Miniatures interviews - sure he would preview you a copy.


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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:52 am 
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Markconz wrote:
That'a a nice system, though for big games a bit slow I would think P?
I.e. with paired roles you can't just chuck buckets of dice for each large unit firing at another, but have to resolve each shot individually?


Hi!

I did not get into unit organizations and how to target each other, but resolution would be "group to group". Given that most of the time a "group" is usually one type of unit, one roll with two types of dice and one per element is actually quite fast (I have tried it with up to ten elements per group) since there are no modifiers and nothing to really look up.

I'm also testing additional mechanics where the amount of hits is determined by the die roll comparison and additional elements in a group shift the die type up (while reducing evasion).

Think that a large group can pour massive firepower gaining more hits, but lose evasive capability since the group is big.

This would make army construction interesting since large groups can pack a punch but attract a lot of incoming fire due to lower evasion.

Conversely, small groups with a lower firepower advantage are viable due to higher evasion (thus harder to hit).

Still tinkering that part, but the die mechanic is very robust and gives me many options to fine tune the information yielded by one die roll.

Note that such a mechanic can also be used in other instances like penetration versus armor value. Where the higher the penetration over armor can count as more "wound" damage for elements that take more than one hit.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:53 am 
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Blip wrote:
primarch wrote:
Blip wrote:
So Polyversal then? ;-)


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Hi!

I have not read those rules (at least not in recent memory).

But if that is what its based on I will have to read it now. :)

Primarch


Its not published yet, but as a kickstarter backer i have seen a near final draft. Tbh, i only skimmed it and without sitting down to play it with some unit stats it didn't stay in my head well, but it definitely used the shifting dice mechanic to provide modifiers. Not sure if it worked like Ambush Alley (etc) where success is a consistent 4+ and the dice change around that.

I'm definitely looking forward to giving the final thing a play though. "Someone" needs to stat up the 40k universe for the system if Ken hasn't already.

You need to tap up Ken after your Meeples and Miniatures interviews - sure he would preview you a copy.


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Hi!

No worries, I'm more than happy to buy one to contribute when its out. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:25 am 
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As Blip mentioned, here's a gameplay intro for Polyversal with the poly dice P:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pcRJ0IECQc

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:33 am 
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Markconz wrote:
As Blip mentioned, here's a gameplay intro for Polyversal with the poly dice P:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pcRJ0IECQc


Hi!

Thanks for the link!

I believe I have seen it and while the system uses polyhedral dice it does have target values.

My system uses no target value as everything is an opposed roll. So the target value is the opponents roll which is variable.

I will buy this game when it comes out. It has some concepts I wish to explore further and liberally steal like any good designer, LOL! ;)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Why is it that every time I leave home to visit my mom for a few days (where I don't have time or convenient access to a full computer) someone posts a thread on one of the forums I read with a topic that I want to write a dissertation about? Every single time it seems....

Anyway, I'm going to do my best to put my thoughts down on a variety of things here.


First, polyversal. For those who aren't familiar with the system, and don't want to watch the video linked above, a quick summary. PVs dice system is an evolution of the combat system from the Silent Death starfighter game. Each attack consists of 3 dice of various types. One die is determined by the targeting systems of the attacker, one by the overall quality of the attacking unit (modified by how shaken and stressed it currently is), and one based on the weapon being used and the type of target (infantry or armor) being attacked. for each attack the 3 dice are gathered and rolled together. The total of the 3 dice is compared to the defense/evasion stat of the target to determine if the attack hits. Each weapon has a damage code, (low, medium, high being the common ones) and the value on the corresponding single die out of the three that were rolled determines the damage the attack causes. Depending on the target, that amount of damage might do various things from reducing the targets quality, degrading its capability to outright destroying it if damage was high enough.

Pro - any given attack can be completely resolved with a single roll of dice. With the combination of the 3 factors that determine which die types to use and the targets defense stat and its susceptibility to damage, the system packs a surprising amount of design space into a single die roll.

Con - Each individual weapon attack must be rolled individually. If you have a squadron of 3 tanks, each with 3 weapons that can shoot, you have to make 9 separate rolls of 3 dice each to resolve that squad's attacks. So while individual attacks may be faster, the overall pace of the game may actually be slower. There is also a minor corner case of a difficult to hit target (whether because of range, size, or speed), while it may not be hit very often, when it IS hit it will always suffer a lot of damage because combining the 2-hit and damage rolls into one like that means that in order to hit such a target all the dice need to have rolled high, so even if the weapon does "low" damage (ie, damage is the value on the lowest of the dice), since all the dice had to roll high numbers, the damage will always be a high number. You can't tag such a target with minor damage. I don't know how significant that con is, but it is there.

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:03 pm 
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Dice Mechanics

I think primarch and I think fairly similarly about dice mechanics in games, here are some thoughts I had on various ways of using dice and I will add some comments about what he said afterward

There are a few basic ways that games generally handle dice tests,

The GW method (also 1st ed D&D) - cross reference on a table. Take the Strength of the weapon and cross reference with the Toughness of the target to get the # you need to roll.
Advantages: The table doesn't have to follow a strict linear progression, we can skew the numbers at the extremes to make a pseudo bell curve of results, making extremes not as potentially breakable
Disadvantages: Tables tend to be complex and hard to memorize unless they do follow a set pattern, but if they are then why use a full table?

The AT-43 Method (also 2nd ed D&D) - Take the Attacker's stat, subtract the Defender's stat and reference a very simple table to get the target number.
Advantages: Very simple for players to memorize, stats are symmetrical (a 4 Strength is about equal to a 4 toughness)
Disadvantages: No room for skewing the results at the extremes. subtraction can be a little distracting and slow a game down slightly.

Warmahordes method (also 3rd ed D&D) - Instead of subtracting the defender's stat, simply use it as a target number for the attack roll. Attacker's stat +die roll needs to equal or beat the defender's stat
Advantages: Very very simple, requires no memorization or calculations on the part of the players just comparisons
Disadvantages: Stats are not symmetrical, a Strength of 5 is way better than a Toughness of 5, making it difficult to compare units at a glance. Odds are a fixed, linear progression, no room for us to tweak the probabilities

Defense roll method - In addition to the attackers rolling dice and adding their stat, the target unit rolls a die and adds their defense stat, whoever scores highest wins
Advantages: preserves the symmetry between stats while retaining the ease of use
Disadvantages: adds extra dice rolls, slowing the game down, creates weird circumstances like rolling a die to see how well your tank's armor absorbs damage this turn

Fantasy Flight method - use custom dice with unique symbol sets
Advantages - odds can be tailored to the designers wishes, opens a lot of design space. FFG claims they have market research that customers vastly prefer the custom dice. Multiple axis of variability can be included on each die, making it possibly to determine more than one thing with a single roll.
Disadvantages - need to have custom dice manufactured. Players need to purchase specialty dice and may suffer if they loose some. the completely wide open nature of such an option makes designing the system much harder because there can be so many more variables to account for.


Primarch, obviously, is advocating a defense roll method, where, for any given attack, both players are rolling dice and trying to beat the other. What he is suggesting though isn't really a multi-dice mechanic, it is just 2 single die mechanics being rolled together. not much different from a predator shooting a lascannon and the player rolling both the 2-hit and 2-wound rolls at the same time. As Markonz mentions, that precludes rolling a bunch of attacks simultaneously (ie all 9 attacks from a squadron of 3 tanks, all at once). If I am following Primarch's thoughts properly, his solution to that issue is to combine the overall fire of those 3 tanks into a single roll (correct me if that isn't what your proposing, P). That I don't like. It strikes me as too much abstraction, even for a 6mm scale game. What if those units want to target different targets? you have to recalculate the firepower involved for each attack then, wasting whatever time you save with the dice rolling mechanic. that also reduces the overall spread of your results because each roll has to be able to incorporate not just the variability of a given weapon, but also the variability of the number of weapons being fired (I'm not sure I explained that point adequately. I know what I'm trying to say, but I can't figure out how to say it clearly enough. Hopefully you all are smart enough to decipher it).

A modification to P's system that avoids that abstraction would be to return to rolling 2-hit and 2-damage separately and have each attack from a given unit (3 tanks, 10 infantry stands, whatever) be rolled against a single defense roll from the defender. So if 10 stands of Orks (for example) shoot at 3 stands of Space Marines, the Orks roll 10 dice to see how accurate their fire is and the SMs roll 1 die to see how hard they are for that unit of orks to hit them. Each of those 10 dice are then compared individually to the SMs 1 die to see if that specific shot hit. All the ones that hit are then rolled vs a single die to see how well protected the SMs are from those orks. I would thank that such a system would preserve P's desire for simple comparison of results without the need for excessive abstraction.

Another comment I wanted to make, however, comes from X-Wing and SW Armada. X-Wing uses a defense roll mechanic, the attacker rolls attack dice and the defender rolls defense dice and the results are compared, just as P suggests. The thing is, a lot (I mean A LOT) of people complain about how swingy that makes X-Wing. You can have a really good attack roll and end up doing nothing because the other guy had an even better defense roll. One of the most common things I read about Armada is how it FFG learned from X-Wing and removed the randomness of a defense roll. Instead, defense in Armada is handled by tokens that can be spent to apply defensive effects to an attack. Each token can be spent and refreshes at the end of the round, or it can be spent a second time during a round and actually discarded, removing it from the game permanently. Such a system not only reduces the randomness of combat some, but adds a set of decisions that need to be made during a part of the game that, in most wargames, is just a dice rolling fest.

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 Post subject: Re: The Interesting Rules Ideas Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:32 pm 
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Movement

I have come to realize over the past several years that, for all the attention that the dice mechanics get in wargames, it is actually how games handle movement that determines how they really play. No matter how it's done, combat in wargames almost always just comes down to rolling a series of dice. While a bad dice mechanic can make that decidedly tedious, the best it can get is just a series of instructions on what dice to roll when and what results are needed on them. With virtually all wargames it is the movement of your units that requires player skill and strategy and that is generally the part of a game that engages players and makes a game fun. To that end I have been giving a lot of thought recently to how to make the movement of your units important and relevant in a game.

Firing arcs - many games centered around vehicles (X-Wing, Firestorm Armada, wings of glory) as well as some infantry based games (Warmahordes, Infinity) make use of firing arcs. Units can only make attacks in specific directions and so how the unit is placed becomes impoortant. Even if the firing arc is a simply (and large) as 180*, the placement of your figures becomes more important to think about than if units can fire a full 360* without worry.

Range - in a lot of games, range is a simple binary condition, either a target is in range of a given weapon, or it isn't. If a game uses more detailed range effects however, then getting your units in the optimal range while denying that to your opponent becomes more important (I'm thinking especially of Star Fleet Battles here, a game where controlling range is very important)

Cover - A game system with a robust cover mechanic (infinity) can make the positioning of your units vitally important. whether or not your units are in cover, and whether or not you can position your units to have cover themselves, while denying cover to the enemy can have a huge impact on effectiveness.

Warmahordes chess king mechanic - In Warmachine you loose if your Warcaster is killed. I know a lot of people (including myself) who dislike that feature of the game. I realized recently, however, that it is a big factor in making movement and positioning in that game important. It is critical in Warmahordes to position your units so that easy avenues to your 'caster are blocked. A great deal of the skill of experienced players is doing that effectively.

If anybody has any other ways that movement can be made more important in a wargame, I would love to hear them.

A concluding thought on this subject. 40K just came out with a new edition and it is getting a lot of early praise from people after they read the new rules and play a couple games, but as I thought about it more I have come to the conclusion that the new edition doesn't really fix any of the root problems that GW games have had. In fact, they seem to go out of their way to make movement mostly irrelevant. All models now have 360* firing arcs, except for a single class of weapon you are either in range or not, cover is almost an after thought. there is essentially nothing to the game except moving into range and then rolling dice until one side is gone. For all the good changes GW made in the new editon (and there were several) I suspect they game will continue to be little more than a dice fest that is decided during list building, and I think this facet of game design is why.

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