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New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions

 Post subject: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:19 am 
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Gents',

We recently started playing NET:EA somewhat regularly; and having quite a bit of fun. None of us have significant experience with the rule-set. Thankfully the downloadable is not a difficult read.

However, because we are the blind leading the blind I have some questions I hope can be answered by the collective. I have no issues admitting my poor understanding of certain parts of the rule-set. By all means name calling is encouraged if it comes with guidance. I apologize if there is a FAQ already that answers these questions.

Scenario 1:

Fearless formation engages another formation in an assault. All the steps are resolved. A roll off with modifiers occurs because the defender was not wiped out and the attack did not stall. Defender wins the roll off.

I assume because the defender wins the attacking formation is ‘broken’ even though it does not care and does not suffer extra hits / casualties. The attacking units (fearless) are permitted to stand their ground (in base contact w/ defending units). Defender decides to stay within ZoC and not consolidate out of base contact.

Q(s): Does another assault immediately occur? Can a fearless formation force and assault over and over until they are used up or the defending formation is wiped out?

Scenario 2:

A formation is on overwatch. Controlling player activates the formation and wants to keep it on overwatch.

Q(s): Does the formation have to pass an initiative roll to maintain overwatch? Can a player ‘activate’ a formation on overwatch that wants to remain on overwatch to stall prior to activating more important formations later in the turn?

Scenario 3:

A flying war engine activates to conduct a ground assault. It is transporting a formation of kick ass infantry. On the way in the war engine comes under fire and suffers a BM. It lands and deposits its contents. At this point in time the two formations are still considered a single formation for the purpose of the upcoming assault. The engage action is complete and the attackers win the assault. They receive 4 BMs from casualties as a result.

Q(s): Do both the war engine and transported infantry formation receive 4 BMs? Can the infantry formation consolidate back into the war engine and fly off at the end of the turn? Do you track the BMs on the infantry formation once they are transported off the board? Do they have an opportunity to regroup/rally the BMs away at the end of the turn while off board? Do the BMs disappear once they are transported off board?

Scenario 4:

A unit (not character upgrade) has close combat special rule of “attacks+1” when in base to base. On the same line in the unit entry it also lists MW. So it reads:

Power Weapons EA(+1), MW

Q(s): Does this mean both attacks are MW attacks (base+extra attack)? When a unit has more than one attack how do I tell when reading the unit entry if the special rules apply to all their attacks or just the ‘extra’ attack. Is it visually different? Is there a good example of two different units I could look at as a template for making the determination? Do the special abilities never apply to more than one attack?

Scenario 5: Game setup.

Q(s): During setup after terrain is placed. Players still need to pick edges, place objectives, place garrisons, reserves and units on the board, etc. Is there a roll-off for each of those steps? Or one roll-off for choosing a table edge, then that player places the first objective, first garrison, reserves and other units?

Scenario 6: Shooting opportunities for suppressed AA units in a formation.

Q(s): A formation has a unit with an AA attack assigned. The formation also has a BM and the AA unit is at the ‘rear’ of the formation in relation to an enemy flying unit conducting a ground attack. Can that AA unit attack the flying unit with a free flak attack? Or is it suppressed?

:nopics

I was told to attach a random picture of 6mm orks as bait.

Thanks,
Jason


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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:30 am 
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snacks wrote:
Scenario 1:

Fearless formation engages another formation in an assault. All the steps are resolved. A roll off with modifiers occurs because the defender was not wiped out and the attack did not stall. Defender wins the roll off.

I assume because the defender wins the attacking formation is ‘broken’ even though it does not care and does not suffer extra hits / casualties. The attacking units (fearless) are permitted to stand their ground (in base contact w/ defending units). Defender decides to stay within ZoC and not consolidate out of base contact.

Q(s): Does another assault immediately occur? Can a fearless formation force and assault over and over until they are used up or the defending formation is wiped out?


It is correct that Fearless units/formations can become broken even though they don't "care". Being broken is a very important part of gameplay.

And no, there is not another assault. The only time an assault is initiated is when a formation successfully activates using the "Engage" action. It is also possible for an engage to continue if there is a draw after the dice have been rolled.

Quote:
Scenario 2:

A formation is on overwatch. Controlling player activates the formation and wants to keep it on overwatch.

Q(s): Does the formation have to pass an initiative roll to maintain overwatch? Can a player ‘activate’ a formation on overwatch that wants to remain on overwatch to stall prior to activating more important formations later in the turn?


Yes, you have to roll to continue to Overwatch, and it is indeed possible to effectively "pass" by putting a formation that is already on Overwatch, on Overwatch.

Quote:
Q(s): Do both the war engine and transported infantry formation receive 4 BMs? Can the infantry formation consolidate back into the war engine and fly off at the end of the turn? Do you track the BMs on the infantry formation once they are transported off the board? Do they have an opportunity to regroup/rally the BMs away at the end of the turn while off board? Do the BMs disappear once they are transported off board?


The formations only suffer the number of BMs that they would get from the casualties that they suffer, as per the rules for "Commander" (2.1.2). A single flying transporting War Engine can't both unload and load troops on the same turn. If you want to both deploy and extract the same formation in the same turn you have to use 2 transporting formations. Yes, formations that are offboard can still be broken and have blast markers, and they rally like other formations on the board.

Quote:
Q(s): Does this mean both attacks are MW attacks (base+extra attack)? When a unit has more than one attack how do I tell when reading the unit entry if the special rules apply to all their attacks or just the ‘extra’ attack. Is it visually different? Is there a good example of two different units I could look at as a template for making the determination? Do the special abilities never apply to more than one attack?


If a special rule is listed along with the weapon, the special rule only applies to attacks made with that weapon. If the special rule is listed on the unit itself (in the Notes section, along with rules such as Leader, Reinforced Armour etc etc) then it applies to all attacks that unit makes. So, in the case of the first example, it would be a single extra attack with MW. Eldar Rangers have Sniper in the Notes section, which means that both their shooting attacks and their Fire Fight and Close Combat attacks have the Sniper Rule. Had Sniper been listed along with their Long Rifles, the rule would only have applied to the Shooting Attacks.

Quote:
Q(s): During setup after terrain is placed. Players still need to pick edges, place objectives, place garrisons, reserves and units on the board, etc. Is there a roll-off for each of those steps? Or one roll-off for choosing a table edge, then that player places the first objective, first garrison, reserves and other units?


The rules for this can be found on page 140, section 6.1.2 and onwards. The rules are a bit unclear if there is one or more roll-offs if both players have the same strategy rating. The only way I've ever played this is that there is only a single roll-off to determine who is considered to have the higher strategy rating for the entire game. Otherwise, the player with the higher strategy rating places objectives etc first.

Quote:
Q(s): A formation has a unit with an AA attack assigned. The formation also has a BM and the AA unit is at the ‘rear’ of the formation in relation to an enemy flying unit conducting a ground attack. Can that AA unit attack the flying unit with a free flak attack? Or is it suppressed?


As formations are suppressed back-to-front, if the AA unit is in the back it is indeed suppressed. Note that units that are in range, but don't have AA attacks, can count as suppressed for the purposes of AA. Therefore it can be a good idea to have AA units in the middle of formations. Also note that units that only have "Small Arms", and no ordinary shooting weapon, can be suppressed. The "Small Arms" count as having 15cm range.

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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:58 am 
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Quote:
Q(s): Does another assault immediately occur? Can a fearless formation force and assault over and over until they are used up or the defending formation is wiped out?

No. The fearless model(s) can stay where it is, the winners can consolidate 5cm away or stay in contact. Either way they are from there on two seperate formations and can be attacked as normal by others. When the loosing formation activates next turn, if it is in the zone of control of the fearless enemy (whether it rallied or not) then it has two options - assault it or take any action whereby it moves out of the ZOC.

As above you can't use the same aircraft to load and unload troops. Sometimes people take spare aircraft to go pick back up air assaulting units to air assault again next turn.


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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:11 pm 
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snacks wrote:
Q(s): Does another assault immediately occur? Can a fearless formation force and assault over and over until they are used up or the defending formation is wiped out?


No to both. However, if either formation is later engaged they can immediately drag the other in if there are units left in base contact, or potentially drag the other formation in if enemies are left within counter-charge range.

Quote:
Q(s): Does the formation have to pass an initiative roll to maintain overwatch? Can a player ‘activate’ a formation on overwatch that wants to remain on overwatch to stall prior to activating more important formations later in the turn?


Yes and yes.

Quote:
Q(s): Do both the war engine and transported infantry formation receive 4 BMs? Can the infantry formation consolidate back into the war engine and fly off at the end of the turn? Do you track the BMs on the infantry formation once they are transported off the board? Do they have an opportunity to regroup/rally the BMs away at the end of the turn while off board? Do the BMs disappear once they are transported off board?


No, the formation that lost the units or DC are the ones that recieve the BMs.

No, there's a FAQ for this. If you use a consolidation move to get on an aircraft it can't disengage. Any other move (activation, withdrawal) it can though.

Yes.

Yes, all formations rally even if off board.

No, BMs never go away unless you rally or regroup. Aircraft BMs go away once they activate (assuming they're off board).

Quote:
Q(s): Does this mean both attacks are MW attacks (base+extra attack)? When a unit has more than one attack how do I tell when reading the unit entry if the special rules apply to all their attacks or just the ‘extra’ attack. Is it visually different? Is there a good example of two different units I could look at as a template for making the determination? Do the special abilities never apply to more than one attack?


No, http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/faq/#223-extra-attacks.

See the FAQ above (this one may help too http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/faq/#2 ... nd-weapons), extra attacks get all attacks on the same line as the extra attack ability. I don't know how to explain it any better than that. A unit with:

Weapon X / Assault Weapons / EA +1, MW
Weapon Y / Small Arms / EA +2, FS
Weapon Z / Assault Weapons / L

Would have 2 attacks in base contact: 1 Lance (their base attack) and a MW.

Or 3 attacks in fire fight: 1 regular (their base), and 2 First Strikes.

Quote:
Q(s): During setup after terrain is placed. Players still need to pick edges, place objectives, place garrisons, reserves and units on the board, etc. Is there a roll-off for each of those steps? Or one roll-off for choosing a table edge, then that player places the first objective, first garrison, reserves and other units?


Higher strategy goes first in each of those steps. If it's a tie, roll off once or per each step as per the 5 min warmup.

Quote:
Q(s): A formation has a unit with an AA attack assigned. The formation also has a BM and the AA unit is at the ‘rear’ of the formation in relation to an enemy flying unit conducting a ground attack. Can that AA unit attack the flying unit with a free flak attack? Or is it suppressed?


BMs suppress AA shots. If the aircraft approached in such a way that the AA was always the furthest unit it would be suppressed if the formation had a BM.

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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:14 am 
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Thank you very much for the answers, clarifications, and links; they are very helpful with understanding the mechanics better.

The distinction between "unit special abilities" and "weapon special abilities" makes sense but we will have to carefully read through the unit data slates for combatants involved in an engage to make sure we get it right. It is probably easier once we're more familiar with our units and where they have what listed (i.e. notes section as opposed to weapon entry).

By default we had been applying weapon special abilities to all attacks when we should have only been applying them to the EA+1 and so on. Made for some bloody engage actions though so no long-term damage.

Thanks,
Jason


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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:33 am 
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You will find this most common with first strike, as it's used as both a unit and weapon ability regularly. For example eldar banshees have it only on their banshee masks (CC) but warp spiders have it on all their attacks including any extra attacks.

Sniper is a problematic example as it was originally intended as a shooting ability, so there's ambiguity about whether it should apply to assaults unless it is explicitly put on a small arms/base contact weapon. The rangers in the Epic UK eldar codex have the sniper ability on the sniper rifles. This whole problem was created because people wanted to be able to give specific units like lictors CC sniper.

Also whilst it's clear that if you consolidate back into an aircraft you cannot disengage, there is not a clear set of rules or FAQs covering the other ways of moving into the aircraft. Dave illustrates an example of allowing the aircraft to disengage if you withdraw into it, which implies if you lose the assault and the aircraft is not destroyed then you can recycle the air assault the next turn. Others don't allow this. Some play it that you simply cannot disengage if you both embark and disembark in the same turn (regardless of the type of move used), others use the war engine transport rules as precedent to rule that any time a formation uses its own move to embark then the aircraft loses the ability to move for the rest of the turn (meaning it can disengage with embarked units only if it picks them up when it lands as specified in the aircraft rules). There have been discussion threads about this but nothing has found its way into the FAQ.

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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:57 am 
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Re-using a thread to ask a learning player question myself.

I sat in on a game between two 100% first-time novices tonight. Now, as little as I know of the rules, it was still vastly more than them so I was 'arbitrating'.

One friend, during rallying a broken Big Ork Warband, wanted to know if he could use his (unused to that point) Supreme Commander reroll on the failed rally. I said, as the supreme commander rule says "one failed initiative test (of any type)", and I didn't find anything obvious to contradict it in my brief browse mid-game, yes he could.

Correct? Or am I terrible and need to go back and read the FAQ/rules another couple times?

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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:52 am 
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Yeah, it is right. It is common strategy to save he SC to rally important formations.

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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:44 pm 
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Yep, and another tip: think about the order you rally in. Usually the most important formation that you'd use your reroll for goes first. If you try to rally something else first and fail, you will have the dilemma of whether to use the reroll on that formation, not knowing if you will need it later for your BTS for example.

However you also have to put the relative risk of failure of each formation into the equation, as sometimes you want to delay rallying a formation IF it is currently in a position causing opposing broken formations to incur -1 on their rally roll AND you would want to move it from that position if it failed.

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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:04 am 
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So, yet another question came up during a game this weekend. I'd love clarification, as I didn't find anything in the FAQ about this.

An Ork warband, mounted in battlewagons, engaged a Space Marine formation. They were well within the Battlewagon movement to base-to-base with almost all of the Marines. The Ork player then read the assaulting and zone of control rules out loud and came to the conclusion that he had to base-to-base with the Battlewagons as that would be the only way to then get the Boyz and Nobz into base-to-base as well.

The particular passage is on p.8 of the 2018-09-17 Tournament Pack, second paragraph in 1.7.3:

"Units may not enter an enemy zone of control while they move, unless they are undertaking an engage action and use their charge move to get into base contact with the nearest enemy unit whose zone of control they have entered"

It all words up to appear to mean that, as the transport cannot get within 5cms of a unit (second FAQ question under 1.7.3 makes that clear) and units can only be deployed within 5cms of a transport, then a transported unit cannot be deployed into base to base unless the transport is within the zone of control as well, which is only possible if the transport moved into base contact during the engage move. Nothing on p.22 seems to run counter to this, either.

It seems odd that a transport must base to base to allow units to base to base. It seems to me that a transport should be able to approach a formation, enter ZoC during an engage, then deploy the troops into base to base without being in base to base itself. The rules, however, don't appear to leave a lot of room to question it, so I'm seeking clarification in case I'm just reading something wrong or missing something obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:35 am 
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The transports would only need to be in BC if they had the move left once they entered the ZoC of an enemy. If they couldn't go the distance they would stop short, and whatever disembarks would be compelled to move into BC with the enemy ZoCing its ride.

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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:31 am 
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Dave wrote:
The transports would only need to be in BC if they had the move left once they entered the ZoC of an enemy. If they couldn't go the distance they would stop short, and whatever disembarks would be compelled to move into BC with the enemy ZoCing its ride.


Thank you! Okay, so if I have this straight - if the transport/other unit has the movement remaining when they enter the ZoC then they are required to go base to base. Period.


So following that - is there any circumstance where units can use up movement through back-and-forth pathing or anything else to enable not-base-to-basing to occur because of lack of movement (or is it technically allowed but frowned upon, etc.)?


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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:18 am 
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It's allowed, I've never seen anyone make a fuss about it.

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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: New Players Learning Rules - Consolidated Questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:54 pm 
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I also think the back and forth etc is legitimate in the circumstances. I would comment to say that in my experience the rule about must going into base to base if entering ZOC isn't always known by the players so doesn't come up in practice. Also lots of people play that you can deploy within 5cm of a transport meaning any part of the base is within. That would mean that, sometimes at least, you could keep transports out of enemy ZOCs

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