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Air Assaults

 Post subject: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:33 am 
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So i've been thinking about a few bits in relation to air assaults, and more importantly breaking the war engines that start them which i can't track down answers to in the FAQ's etc. Anyone have thoughts on these?

1. If an air assault is declared against a unit, and the assaulting aircraft (say a Vampire) takes 2 blast markers on the way in. As soon as it lands it now counts as an immobile ground based war engine, and counts as broken. If it is within 15cm of an enemy unit does this mean it would be immediately destroyed?

2. If so, does the combined unit get to complete it's move (i.e. the troops inside get to disembark) before being destroyed? Or is the rules for destroyed transports immediately applied? (i.e. everyone inside is taking an armour save)

3. If on the other hand it's more sensible and stays outside of 15cm, can it participate in the assault (and for that matter does it count as being part of the assault) despite being broken?

4. If on the other hand it only has one blast marker coming in, and a unit on overwatch shoots it, exactly when would overwatch trigger? the moment the plane lands, when the infantry disembark, or at the end of the 5cm move from the plane? Normally it would be at the end of a move, which in the case of say a double there would be two opportunities. I guess the question here comes down to how many 'moves' there is in an air assault in total, either just the one single move or technically more?


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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:42 am 
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The aircraft and transported unit count as a single formation until after the assault is resolved

from 3.1.3 (emphasis mine)

Quote:
Alternatively a war engine could take an engage action and dismount any transported units at the end of its charge move. It and the disembarking units would be treated as a single formation for the purposes of resolving the assault


so in 1. the aircraft would only count as a single formation after the air assault was resolved, thus being destroyed, which means 2. does not count. For 3, it does not have to stay outside 15cm so may participate as it is not broken until after the assault is resolved. For 4, the overwatch shots can only target the aircraft after troops have disembarked to prevent the old deathstrike sniping

from 1.10 (emphasis mine)

Quote:
A formation that is on overwatch may choose to shoot immediately after an enemy formation completes a move or unloads troops

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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:15 pm 
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also I should add that as per 3.2.4 the broken aircraft would not be destroyed outright by a single unit within 15cm

Quote:
If there are any enemy units within 15cms of the war engine after it makes a withdrawal then it suffers one extra point of damage (no save allowed) for each enemy unit that is within 15cms.

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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Interesting, cheers :) It's been a while since i've actually done any air assaults and wanted to ensure i was playing all the nuances correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:58 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:


Quote:
A formation that is on overwatch may choose to shoot immediately after an enemy formation completes a move or unloads troops


Ooh, interesting. Dan1314 and I played that wrong in Scotland the other weekend. I demand a stewards enquiry! :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:11 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:


Quote:
A formation that is on overwatch may choose to shoot immediately after an enemy formation completes a move or unloads troops


Ooh, interesting. Dan1314 and I played that wrong in Scotland the other weekend. I demand a stewards enquiry! :-)


I thought it sounded strange the way it worked out in your game but i assumed that you'd kept troops inside the Landa to allow it to pin troops inside one of the Gorgons. Usually the Overwatching troops are courteous enough to wait 'til everyone's alighted before rudely nuking their ride


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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:23 am 
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I am not convinced, acquired above "completes a move or unloads troops" meaning that unloading troops is not the same as completing the move.
So the transport landing is the completion of the move and maybe overmatched at that time (before the troops get out).
In fairness it's rare for a transport to be overmatched by a titan killer, - but full clarity on if the troops get out before overwatch would help as it does have a big impact.


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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Landing doesn't count as completing a move though.

Fourth question here:

http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/faq/#110-overwatch

That was added before Deathstrikes were given Indirect and justThad "ignore LoF'.

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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:47 am 
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It can create some oddities though, using disembarking troops in order to overwatch the separate thing you couldnt shoot at before.

Personally I wouldnt mind if this FAQ were rescinded since the deathstrike is no longer as big a problem. It feels to me that overwatching anti tank weapons make a credible counter to an air assault, and ought to be able to destroy an aircraft as it is landing anyway.

But yeah, thats the ruling.

On the original question though, I find it helps to think of the approach move as the charge move. So at that point all units are part of the same formation.

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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:02 am 
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Just to be a pain in the doodle I'm gona add a question.

I had a fellow gamer here point out to me in the rules that they count as 1 formation when it unloads and the fully loaded air assaults not disembarking couldn't use its numbers to gain out number or double out number.

But I couldn't find it anywhere In the rules the other day. Could someone help a brother out and point it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:37 am 
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It works just the same as a combined assault or being intermingled in an assault as far as i'm aware. If you're an active participant in the assault (i.e. not just providing supporting fire) you get counted towards outnumbering, and also suffer the consequences if you lose the assault.

Specifics in the rulebook: P 19 (1.12.10) Intermingled Formations states the intermingled units count as one formation for the assault.

P 28 (2.1.2) Combined Assaults - Again they count as one formation.

On Air assaults in particular, it states on page 44: Air Assault: Transport aircraft may choose to land as
described above, and then it and any units that disembark are allowed to fight an assault instead of shooting.The aircraft and any units that disembark are treated as a single formation for the duration of the assault, in the same manner as units disembarking from a war engine taking an engage action


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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:47 am 
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Air Assault
Transport aircraft may choose to land as described above, and then it and any units that disembark are allowed to fight an assault instead of shooting. If this option is chosen then the aircraft and any units that disembark may enter enemy zones of control as if they were charging. The aircraft and any units that disembark are treated as a single formation for the duration of the assault, in the same manner as units disembarking from a war engine taking an engage action (see 3.1.3). If the aircraft loses the assault it is destroyed, but any units that have disembarked may withdraw normally.

I found it, but is this right to say you have to disembark to be counted as the single formation for the assault?

Edit: I never played it this way until this was pointed out to me recently.

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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:36 pm 
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You are right, but I think that might just be an example of how poorly written the rulebook is.
Ive never seen a unit choose to remain in the aircraft.
I have tried to think of a reason why that would occur ... as that would only be attractive to ensure all hits go into the aircraft (at which stage you have a danger of the aircraft dieing....) - nope, cant think of one.

Still, whilst 'playing' with the rules, what does the overwatch / aircraft rule mean for an assaulting empty transport? - no overwatch? (if we consider landing not to be a movement, and no troops disembark)?.... :)


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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:38 pm 
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Was playing against mordoten alot and he loved slamming the ork landa in full and leaving it loaded against squishy formations and gaining the out number double outnumber plus blasts of he could. Was working super well until I was telling the tales of it at a tournament and this got pointed out to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Air Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:01 am 
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It would be very useful against a soft target if you could receive the modifiers and then, because you haven't disembarked, fly off again still loaded to return the subsequent turn.

And to answer your question, no there would be no overwatch allowed either.

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