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slave bringer and shields

 Post subject: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:31 pm 
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So ground flack and capping. Are the shots simultaneous or can the flack knock down the shield so the cap dosnt suffer -1?

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:37 pm 
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They're simultaneous. See the second FAQ under 4.2:

http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/faq/#42-aircraft

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:39 pm 
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I would say that from reading 4.2.4 the following paragraph stands out to me:

Quote:
AA weapons are designed to fire defensively against an attacking enemy aircraft, and may therefore shoot immediately after an enemy aircraft formation makes an approach move but before it makes its attack.


so my reading would be the ground/defensive aircraft flak would fire first as it always does, resolve hits etc, which could potentially knock shields down, you then resolve the attacks from the CAP-ing aircraft after ground/defensive AA has fired so if the ground AA knocks the shields down, the CAP attacks do not suffer the -1 to hit penalty

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:55 pm 
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4.2 implies the other way around:

Quote:
A formation on combat air patrol may choose to carry out an interception action in reaction to an enemy ground attack. ... It takes place after the enemy ground attack formation has made its approach move, but before flak is fired at the ground attackers or they make their own attack.


The aircraft rules are a hot mess. But given above I guess there is an order in there. CAP attacks first then ground flak. Given Kyuss's paragraph above I would say ground flak fire before any enemy aircraft you are not CAPing but end in the fire arc of. So final answer:

CAP attacks
ground flak
other enemy aircraft formations you're not CAPing but end in their fire arc

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Still waking up, but reading closer I don't think there's a clear separation between ground flak and "other enemy. aircraft..." flak. They're both flak attacks, and would happen at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:50 pm 
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I think that you are missunderstanding, Dave: the part you quoted doesn't say a thing about ground flak, but about the ground attack of the aircraft formation that is being capped and when it is fired compared with when both the attacking and defending flak go. The part that talks about the order of flak between attacking and defending formations is the one Kyuss quoted.

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:24 pm 
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It does say something about ground flak, "but before flak is fired at the ground attackers".

Enemy formation makes approach move
CAP approaches and fires
flak is fired at the ground attackers (the enemy formation)
ground attackers make their own attack

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:32 pm 
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let's set up an example

Norto is using a slavebringer loaded with nasties against Apoc, Norto has bought an executioner landing module for the ground flak, Apoc is using UK thousand sons with AA defilers and doomwings

-Apoc puts his doomwings on CAP

-Norto activates his slavebringer and flies in to ground attack something, he places it such that it is in range of the executioner's AA, but unfortunately cannot avoid the AA of the defilers either

-Apoc doesn't think this is sufficient amounts of AA to ward off the slavebringer so chooses to CAP, he flies in behind the slavebringer so there is no defensive flak

-Ground flak fires first on both sides, this has to be resolved BEFORE the CAP attacks because it will determine how many doomwings get to shoot -also in the case of a formation of aircraft it determines how many defensive shots the formation may get

-the Executioner AA misses (boo!)

-the defilers score a hit on the slavebringer which knocks the shadowfield down

-now the ground flak has been resolved, the aircraft may attack

-First the doomwings fire this has to be resolved BEFORE the slavebringer attacks because it determines whether the slavebringer decides to land, or abort the air assault and just shoot they miss all their attacks, but crucially the shadowfield penalty does not apply

-Now the slavebringer has 1BM and can either choose to continue the ground attack and strafe the target or land and assault/shoot it

I'm pretty sure that has to be how it works? otherwise you have CAP-ing aircraft always being able to shoot, regardless of any ground/defensive flak

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:15 pm 
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Quote:
I'm pretty sure that has to be how it works?


I would put the order as:

Side 1 Ground Attacker makes approach move.
Side 2 CAP makes interception move.
Side 1 Flak (both ground & airborne) fires at CAP (this may include AA attacks from the Ground Attacker).
Side 2 CAP makes its attacks against Ground Attacker.
Side 2 Flak (both ground & airborne) fires at Ground Attacker.
Side 1 Ground Attacker makes its attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:46 pm 
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You're correct, so in actual fact the CAP-ing formation would strip the shadowfields and the ground flak would suffer no cover modifier to hit

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:27 pm 
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Is this already covered in the FAQ
Quote:
Q: A formations of Ork Fighta Bommers attacks a formation that has a Hydra attached to it. The Fighta
Bommers are also intercepted by two Thunderbolts. What is the order of fire for the Thunderbolts, Hydras, Fighta Bommers AA and Fighta Bommers ground attack?

A: Each formation is allowed to make its Flak attacks after each new air unit has finished its approach move. The attacks would then be resolved in the reverse order that they were initiated following the rule of approach, flak, attack. So the Fighta Bommers would get a Flak attack at the end of the Thunderbolts approach move, the Thunderbolts would get their air attack, the remaining Fighta Bommers would then take fire from the Hydras and then the Fighta Bommers would finish their ground attack.
The order of aircraft and flack attacks is summarised in the following table:
• 1. Attacking air units activate and move into position.
• 2. Defending player may "un-CAP" up to one aircraft formation on patrol and move it into position.
• 3. Attacker's unit ground flak fires at CAP (if applicable).
• 4. Attacking aircrafts' defensive AA fires (i.e. not just ground flak)
• 5. Defender's ground flak fires at attacking air units (if applicable).
• 6. CAP formation fires at attacking air units (if applicable).
• 7. Attacking air units perform ground attack or assault.


steps 5 and 6 are separate so I would say that means if the shadow field is lost from attacks from step 5 the -1 would not be used for step 6.


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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:05 am 
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So why isnt it 2 blast markers if they arnt at the same time?

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:34 am 
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Because you can only take one blast marker during the approach move regardless of how many times you come under fire

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 Post subject: Re: slave bringer and shields
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:07 am 
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After doing a dave and replying just after waking up you would have to be right as the order allows you to shoot them down before they can shoot so they cant be simultaneous.

So im going to agree to disagree with myself and agree with you.

We played it this way just to clarify.

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