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Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario

 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:05 pm 
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I think they'd have limited impact to be honest, good for nominal objective control, but will get blown away by any real opposition. The fact they have to contest each turn, as well as only being able to contest a single objective each makes them much less a pain in the arse.

Now infantry blobs garrisoning? Different story entirely. If an opponent leaves objectives near cover i can see them being very difficult to shift, and in the case of armies like Guard, Ad Mech and Black Legion, they do take a bit of shifting. Black Legion especially given they have Obliterators for AA plinking.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:15 am 
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Does this not mean that as long as the objectives are placed in the open infantry garrisons are going to have to spend ages sitting in the open to keep scoring? I can see an infantry heavy force (especially low armour) struggling to keep boots on the objectives.

At the moment you can keep them in cover somewhere nearby and only go into the open when you have to.

I'm just theorying as we may have a test game at the weekend and Im looking at the options for a Steel Legion list.

Also does it not benefit the forces like Skitarii where the core and support formations are more even power-wise. I can't see IG support units holding on for long. Maybe foot Storm Troopers for extra boots that are a little less terrainbound than the Infantry Companies


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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:22 pm 
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This is a good thing to stir the ''metas'' a bit, same as how in UK tournaments one is forced to change armies between tournaments.

I like the ideas a lot, except the one about limiting the number of objectives controlled per formation: you did it to prevent scouts doing it, but given that popcorn formations are the way to go in this game, i think it will hurt costly formations and big formations the most, which are bad enough already. They could even go with a boost.

If you want to prevent that situation, how about just say that Scouts can only contest objectives and not capture?

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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Potentially, although it works both ways of course, and you could then potentially run them into cover to take objectives you've placed in your opponents half.

It might mean for instance though that you use another unit earlier on and then 'hand over' to the infantry further on in the game, especially if there's artillery on the prowl. That, or have a few stands in the open while the rest of the unit's in cover to minimise casualties i guess. Given the levels of terrain on an average Epic table it's probably going to involve a hill though to be in the open, so they at least have something to hide behind potentially.

In terms of skew lists though, overall they still have more to worry about in terms of matchups than the scenario - the idea is more that there's a reason to get out there and do stuff for turns 1 and 2 rather than just sitting back and then going for a grab on turn 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
This is a good thing to stir the ''metas'' a bit, same as how in UK tournaments one is forced to change armies between tournaments.

I like the ideas a lot, except the one about limiting the number of objectives controlled per formation: you did it to prevent scouts doing it, but given that popcorn formations are the way to go in this game, i think it will hurt costly formations and big formations the most, which are bad enough already. They could even go with a boost.

If you want to prevent that situation, how about just say that Scouts can only contest objectives and not capture?


That's kinda one of the reasons i'd put in the proposal that units under half strength can't capture, only contest so that popcorn armies aren't quite as good at just capturing everything, as it's normally very easy to take them under half strength.

Also, it's worth noting that this would be only 1 game out of say 3, and the other two would still be the standard grand scenario - so players trying to optimise for this one would potentially fall foul of the other two games ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:44 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
Blip, with your mission the change I'd make is going back to 4 turns rather than 3 which gives non-horde armies the chance to whittle down their more cumbersome horde opponents. I was really up for trying Dark Eldar at that event until it dropped to 3 turns at which point Krieg were a no-brainier.


Yep, the drop to 3 turns was made as we found players tended to take longer to play the game when it was new to them - Because any accumulator scenario relies on making a judgement as to whether to go for early or late points we felt we had to set a manageable turn limit so that everyone had the same opportunity to gain victory points. We kept the larger deployment zones the same as the AoS original (30cm) to accommodate slow armies like Krieg, though i'm not sure that was actually necessary in retrospect.

Richard's victory conditions relying on margin of victory is a good move in this regard, though i would still think you still need a set turn limit as a player using a tough army could string it out to turn 4 in order to achieve a crushing 10 point victory in turn 4 rather thank small victory in turn 3. Maybe a earlier victory should be weighted somehow as it is in the EpicUK points table currently?

Over all, I think krieg and ferrals need careful testing in this scenario. Especially when amplified with the "half strength" and "one formation per objective" rules. In fact, as this scenario already favours tough armies, i'm not so sure it is necessary. They would be interesting modifications to the old tournament scenario though...

I've also thought for a while that the tournament scenario is already weighted against defensive play (which i'm sure was intentional). However the need to hold all 3 own half objectives, 2 of which are placed by your opponent, for one VP is quite a task when weighed against blitz+1 placed by yourself being worth 2VPs. Not sure if others agree?


* BTW - I couldn't find this thread on my phone before, but now at a PC I've dug it up and i should credit Matty_C's work converting the AoSigmar scenarios to EA, from which Ian an I "borrowed" heavily : http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=177&t=31785&hilit=age+of+sigmar They are worth a look.


Last edited by Blip on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:49 pm 
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I'd like to see more regular alternative scenarios.

One of the reasons Ryan (Man of Kent) gave for giving up on epic was objectives only mattering on turn 3+ and it feeling unrealistic.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:59 pm 
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RichardL wrote:

Also, it's worth noting that this would be only 1 game out of say 3, and the other two would still be the standard grand scenario - so players trying to optimise for this one would potentially fall foul of the other two games ;)


That's the best part of it, indeed. And if this scenario becomes successful for several tournaments, a third scenario could be thought of to avoid optimizations and stir things up.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:25 am 
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Just some thoughts:

1. I fear armies like Death Guard, 1ksons, Krieg, tyranids become near unbeatable
2. I struggle to imagine a way how eldar and necrons could possibly work
3. I really like the idea of shifting 1/3 of the total games in a tournament (rounded up) to a scenario like this. It will greatly affect list building to a more enjoyable overall meta
4. I think with careful stressing the sensitive points this has the potential to become a real good thing. Please keep going :D

Enjoy your weekend


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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:29 am 
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Dave and me had a test game of this last night and came to one main suggestion - no corner deployment.

He took a fairly Scout heavy Blood Angels against my largely foot Skitarii. He called corners and placed both T'n'H objective in the corner closest his deployment zone on the halfway line, one right in the corner and the other 30cms in along the long table edge. His first Scout garrison then strung out along the halfway line into the corner, contesting both my objectives.

Between the Scouts' ZoC and the edge of the table I physically couldn't garrison the objective right in the corner and could only squeeze some of one formation in to contest the other.

In the Grand Scenario this wouldn't be that much of a problem, having three turns to clear them out, but in this case we both felt it perhaps needs addressing somehow. The best suggestion we came up with would be to make it so players couldn't pick corner deployment.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:32 am 
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Thanks :) I think that's a solid suggestion.

Talking of the assualt powerhouse armies like Krieg and 1k sons, they'll have the same issues in this as they have in the standard scenario - looking at krieg for instance, they tend to have 3 core units that do most of the heavy lifting, and can only take 1 objective each. Spread objectives will be hard for them to cover, and their limited activation count makes it possible to contest a lot of the time, especially as they don't want to be out of the gorgons if they can help it. 1k sons still hate being assaulted without daemons already being summoned, and are otherwise fairly straightforward to break. Lack of decent air cover also hurts both armies. Death Guard would potentially be pretty strong at this, although they are comparatively slow, and aren't exactly winning tournaments by the handful under the standard grand scenario.

Eldar wise, i think it depends on the list. The build that Steve took at the start of the year would do well i think (quite a lot of sturdy infantry), and Kev's aspects in wave serpents build would be bloody brutal given you can't just hide away from it for 2 turns and they assault from miles away.

Necrons would need a bit of 'outside the box' thinking, but i think it's still do-able.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:16 am 
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Looks good. In the New Year I'd like to give the scenario a try, presumably against Blip.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:11 pm 
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As mentioned Richard I can be availabel to test it out in thenew year, either a Monday at the club or a weekend at Aldershot.

One thing though is that I took my (admittedly intentionally sub-optimal) Dark Eldar to the Exeter tourney and played that mission and it was painful. The issues why are mostly to do with DE specifically but it's just as a note that some of the lists core design conceits (which is one of the reasons for having so many variants and specific lists for the same faction) may make it tough to balance them for the new missions that get designed.

It would be a shame to have some of the lists not really turn up competitively to tournaments because 1/3rd of the time they would struggle to take part.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:45 am 
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Tbh i think a general DE list could work well at it given you're still placing objectives as you normally would rather than the lower number fixed objectives per the EE scenario. I can see them easily taking the two in opponents half on turn 1 for an early lead, and then winning turn 2 or 3 with a big thrust at the opponent's blitz and possibly BTS.

Happy to get some test games in during the new year though and we can see how they get on :)


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 Post subject: Re: Alternate Epic-uk Tournament Scenario
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:29 am 
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Having played quite a bit o fFirestorm Armada recently which has a scoring system similar to what Richard has described I've a couple of observations:

Unfinished games.... in my opinion it's important that should a game not be finished, the "live" scoring should not be used, some lists will accumulate points quickly early on whilst others in the late game. This may sound obvious but it's not how a lot of tournaments are scored!?

Regardless of hiw unfinished games are dealt with, as it is easier to tell how you're doing as the game plays with a "live" scoring system there is a greater risk of stalling for an advantage.

Whilst we can generally rely on an extremely high level of sportsmanship the approach towards unfinished games (whether deliberate or not) needs to be fair and robust.


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