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Support Fire

 Post subject: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:57 pm 
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Hello, ich have some Questions

Image

The grey Orks (right) assault the Formation Leman Russ Battle Tanlks. All Grey orks are in Range (15cm) to the silver Battle Tank but not to the other Tanks.

1. How many Tanks can be destroyed by the Orks ? The Formation or only the one silver Tanke, because he is the only one in Range to the Orks.

Support Fire.

Quote:
Calling on support allows units from other formations to attack with their firefight value if they are within 15cm and have a line of fire to an
enemy unit directly involved in the assault. In this case ‘directly involved’ means belonging to the attacking or defending formation(s) and in a position to attack.


The Green Orks are in Range to the Battletank Formation, but only one Unit is in Range to the Silver tank.

1. Wich Orks can make support Fire and how many Tanks can be destroyed?

Can only one Ork Unit make support Fire because he is in Range or the Formaztion because all are in Range to the Battle Tank Formation.

Can all Tanks within the Range of the Support Fire-Orks (15cm) be destroyed or only the Silver Tank?

What, if the Grey Orks (the Attacking Formation) destroy the Silver Tank.. Is Supportfire still possible?

And what ist " in a position to attack"

Thanks for the answers..


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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:02 pm 
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only the silver tank can be hit by the attacking formation, and assuming it survives, it is the only model that can be hit by support fire as well, only the models in range of that model can support fire (in your example I think it's just one in range correct?)

this is the downside of clipping assaults!

edit: 'in a position to attack' means that they are in FF range, (even if they have no FF attack like genestealers for example)

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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:53 pm 
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Yes, only one Model.

Quote:
edit: 'in a position to attack' means that they are in FF range, (even if they have no FF attack like genestealers for example)

In FF- Range of the attacking/Defendigng Formation and not the FF-Range of the Supportfire-Unit?

Another Question

Countercharge:

Can the green Battle Tank (the green tnk in the left) make a Countercharge move to the grey ork Formation (the attacker) or must he make his move against the nearest Unit, even if he cannot harm them (the green Orks) because they are the nerest Unit.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:59 pm 
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GrrArgh wrote:
Yes, only one Model.

Quote:
edit: 'in a position to attack' means that they are in FF range, (even if they have no FF attack like genestealers for example)

In FF- Range of the attacking/Defendigng Formation and not the FF-Range of the Supportfire-Unit?


correct

Quote:
Another Question

Countercharge:

Can the green Battle Tank (the green tnk in the left) make a Countercharge move to the grey ork Formation (the attacker) or must he make his move against the nearest Unit, even if he cannot harm them (the green Orks) because they are the nerest Unit.


nearest unit, if they can contact the unit they drag it into the engagement

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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:58 pm 
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Ok..

If i understand it right, i can not move my Formation near to the attacking Formation to get more dice if an another Formation/ Unit is the nearest but min. 5,1 cm away from my Units...


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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:32 pm 
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Correct, unless you have units with 30cm+ move which can countercharge 10cm

Also if you countercharge away from the attacking unit and get more than 15cm away the assault stalls

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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:57 pm 
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If countercharging: How close has a unit to move to drag a non-assaulting unit into the assault? Is 15cm (FF-range) enough or has it to contact the enemy unit?

In the example above. The left green tank countercharges and doing so has to move towards the closest green Ork unit.
If he enters 15cm range is the Ork unit (and thegreen Ork formation also?) dragged into the assault?
Or has the tank to reach base contact to drag the Green Ork unit (and the green Ork formation also?) into the assault?

I guess base contact is a must or else the wohle thing above would be automatically "directly involved" and Supporting Fore would never ever occur (in every assault not only in the example above).

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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:10 pm 
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Yeah it's base contact

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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:14 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Correct, unless you have units with 30cm+ move which can countercharge 10cm

Also if you countercharge away from the attacking unit and get more than 15cm away the assault stalls


As far as I know, this is not possible. The rules are pretty explicit about counter charge moves only allowing movement towards enemy models.

Is there something I am missing?

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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:53 am 
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That's my reading of it too - the engaging formation can move however it wants, but countercharge moves must be directly towards the closest enemy unit.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:40 am 
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Jes, and the nearst enemy Modell is not always the attacking unit. It could be another enemy Unit....if i countercharge them, i could leave the 15cm Range of the attacking unit...


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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:06 am 
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True. Pretty rare, though, and most definitely the fault of the assaulter for the positioning. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:21 pm 
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Yeah, I could see that scenario happening. And it is also true that you can use counter charge moves to bring supporting units into the assault, so I can see that.

The only reason I bring it up is because every once in a while I have someone try to counter charge away from an assault in order to get it to stall, and that is expressly forbidden by the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:25 pm 
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^this^
yeah seen that before :) I do think it adds an interesting dynamic for formations consisting entirely of units with Scout to perform that action as a houserule.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Fire
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:17 am 
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The rules on counter-charging are quite specific, but also often misunderstood. 1.12.4 Counter Charges states "A unit must use their counter charge move to move directly towards the closest enemy unit."
This is often used to 'pin' units in a target formation by placing a second formation to one side of the target so that a number of target units cannot move towards the chargers.

However this can result in the charge stalling, or even more rarely to cause a different combat to take place.

If the chargers are trying a 'clipping' attack, they are often placed around 15cm from units in the target formation. If all the units in the target formation are closer to the second formation their counter charge can move them out of 15 cm from the chargers, stalling the initial charge.

If the rear-most units of the chargers actually contact the second formation, then the combat takes place between the target formation and the second formation.

Note Xenocidal Maniac, I am not sure that the defender is "expressly forbidden by the rules" to avoid the combat not least because the circumstances of the intended combat are engineered by the attacker. However I would agree that the above situations are rare . . .


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