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Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment

 Post subject: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:30 pm 
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Guys,

After a great tournament I took away a couple of questions. None of which impacted on any games I played, but I always like how new opponents make you think.

Well the first point is that I was playing the much hated air list, so please avoid the temptation to decide on the basis of hatred for that :) :)

The first thing, and Tim advised on this at the time, was how BTS works for a unit that can be off board.
In my case, terminators within a transport.
I had previously assumed that the BTS needed to be killed, (with the exception of the necron special rule),
however I had chatted with Steve Cole about having an Ork list where the planes were the BTS, and he had advised then that this wouldn't work (as off board counts as dead for BTS - wise man that Mr cole).
Tim similarly advised that this is the case for Terminators. So its important not to carry them over for turn four
Which makes sense as its pretty harsh for the opponent to have no chance of even shooting at the BTS.
It did however get me thinking of quite a few games where eldar have had a SC amongst aspects off board and failed to activate on turn 3 (even with re-roll). Assuming the same rule applies, thats a big kick in the behind.

Ok the more exciting one was AA suppression.
If we have a large unit with AA and non AA in this case it was leman russ with a hydra in the middle), then suppressing the AA can be difficult (effectively every unit with a gun and range can be suppressed, so it goes to the back tank first). - I had handed out four blast markers, ensuring that the hydra was suppressed - it being the fourth unit from the back as I faced them. But then when it came to flying away, my exit move put over units further away, and effectively unsepressed the hydra at a point of the exit.
I read a few rules in context of this - AA can fire anytime as long as the plane flys over their range (so even where only one AA was in range for the flight in, the three that weren't in range can shoot if the unit flys out over their range). So the fact that the plane started in a place where it was safe from the suppression, ended in a safe place and spent 90% of its flight in a place where the AA was suppressed, means he-haw, it still gets shot. - Assume others interpret in same way?
Just found it really interesting as it makes you think of suppression in a 360 degree angle.


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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Dan 1314 wrote:
Guys,

The first thing, and Tim advised on this at the time, was how BTS works for a unit that can be off board.
In my case, terminators within a transport.
I had previously assumed that the BTS needed to be killed, (with the exception of the necron special rule),
however I had chatted with Steve Cole about having an Ork list where the planes were the BTS, and he had advised then that this wouldn't work (as off board counts as dead for BTS - wise man that Mr cole).
Tim similarly advised that this is the case for Terminators. So its important not to carry them over for turn four
Which makes sense as its pretty harsh for the opponent to have no chance of even shooting at the BTS.
It did however get me thinking of quite a few games where eldar have had a SC amongst aspects off board and failed to activate on turn 3 (even with re-roll). Assuming the same rule applies, thats a big kick in the behind.

from FAQ
4.3 Spacecraft
Q: Do Spacecraft count for the Break Their Spirit goal if they are the most expensive formation in an army?
A: No. Spacecraft (or any off-board units or formations) do not count towards goals.

explained by nealunt in a previous thread on the subject.
http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... rd#p355992


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 Post subject: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Wow, that is more complex than I had thought. So in summary BTS is the most expensive unit on board or destroyed unit at the end of turn 3. So Dan would have been ok to recycle his terminators and have them off board at the end of turn 3 as long as there was an on board unit alive which was worth more points than any destroyed unit?

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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:55 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
Wow, that is more complex than I had thought. So in summary BTS is the most expensive unit on board or destroyed unit at the end of turn 3. So Dan would have been ok to recycle his terminators and have them off board at the end of turn 3 as long as there was an on board unit alive which was worth more points than any destroyed unit?


Correct


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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:30 pm 
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And for the AA question, being "in range" and suppression are treated slightly differently.
  • The units that are in range to fire (or be suppressed) are determined against the path taken by the aircraft when entering or leaving the table.
  • The suppression process is evaluated against the final position of the aircraft after it has moved (at the table edge when disengaging) This is done purely for simplicity, as trying to work this out during the actual movement becomes both complex and lengthy.
The consequence of this second point does mean that the aircraft unit may well be in two distinctly different places for the suppression calculation / process, so may well result in different units being able to fire / be suppressed.


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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:09 am 
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dptdexys wrote:
StevekCole wrote:
Wow, that is more complex than I had thought. So in summary BTS is the most expensive unit on board or destroyed unit at the end of turn 3. So Dan would have been ok to recycle his terminators and have them off board at the end of turn 3 as long as there was an on board unit alive which was worth more points than any destroyed unit?


Correct

Oh, so we are back to the original interpretation.

Dan, I'd have had a go at your scouts from the start then.

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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:29 am 
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Ginger wrote:
  • The units that are in range to fire (or be suppressed) are determined against the path taken by the aircraft when entering or leaving the table.
  • The suppression process is evaluated against the final position of the aircraft after it has moved (at the table edge when disengaging) This is done purely for simplicity, as trying to work this out during the actual movement becomes both complex and lengthy.
.


Can i just double check this?

I remember it being discussed a couple of years ago and the result was it is all to be done on the fly? Is this a UK vs Net interpretation? Might be my memory.



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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:44 am 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
dptdexys wrote:
StevekCole wrote:
Wow, that is more complex than I had thought. So in summary BTS is the most expensive unit on board or destroyed unit at the end of turn 3. So Dan would have been ok to recycle his terminators and have them off board at the end of turn 3 as long as there was an on board unit alive which was worth more points than any destroyed unit?


Correct

Oh, so we are back to the original interpretation.

Dan, I'd have had a go at your scouts from the start then.


Destroying the scouts straight away would not get you BTS, Victory Conditions are not checked until the end of turns 3 and 4 . Only then do you check for BTS.
Quote:
6.1.7 Victory Conditions
You must check to see if either player has won at the end of the third and fourth game turns. If neither player has won at the end of the fourth turn then the ‘tiebreaker’ rule is used to determine the winner.

Each player is trying to achieve five things known as goals. You win if you have achieved two of these goals in the end phase of turns three or four, and you have achieved more goals than your opponent. The five goals are: Blitzkrieg, Break Their Spirit, Defend The Flag, Take And Hold, and They Shall Not Pass


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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:13 am 
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Dan 1314 wrote:
Ok the more exciting one was AA suppression.
If we have a large unit with AA and non AA in this case it was leman russ with a hydra in the middle), then suppressing the AA can be difficult (effectively every unit with a gun and range can be suppressed, so it goes to the back tank first). - I had handed out four blast markers, ensuring that the hydra was suppressed - it being the fourth unit from the back as I faced them. But then when it came to flying away, my exit move put over units further away, and effectively unsepressed the hydra at a point of the exit.
I read a few rules in context of this - AA can fire anytime as long as the plane flys over their range (so even where only one AA was in range for the flight in, the three that weren't in range can shoot if the unit flys out over their range). So the fact that the plane started in a place where it was safe from the suppression, ended in a safe place and spent 90% of its flight in a place where the AA was suppressed, means he-haw, it still gets shot. - Assume others interpret in same way?
Just found it really interesting as it makes you think of suppression in a 360 degree angle.



Just follow the rules
Quote:
Ground units that are armed with AA weapons can shoot atenemy aircraft as they move past them. To represent this, they may shoot at an aircraft formation that moved within their weapon range during their approach or disengagement move,even if the aircraft is no longer within weapon range when the attack is made. Attacks made against disengaging aircraft are resolved when the aircraft reaches the edge of the table, before it is removed to ‘fly back to base’.


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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:48 am 
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Tim, you'd also be looking to kill a single thunderbrick at 200 pts which would then force him to have the termies on board at the end of turn 3.

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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:21 pm 
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dptdexys wrote:
Tiny-Tim wrote:
dptdexys wrote:
StevekCole wrote:
Wow, that is more complex than I had thought. So in summary BTS is the most expensive unit on board or destroyed unit at the end of turn 3. So Dan would have been ok to recycle his terminators and have them off board at the end of turn 3 as long as there was an on board unit alive which was worth more points than any destroyed unit?


Correct

Oh, so we are back to the original interpretation.

Dan, I'd have had a go at your scouts from the start then.


Destroying the scouts straight away would not get you BTS, Victory Conditions are not checked until the end of turns 3 and 4 . Only then do you check for BTS.
Quote:
6.1.7 Victory Conditions
[b][i]You must check to see if either player has won at the end of the third and fourth game turns.[/i

Brain is hurting - but I get where you are coming from.


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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:38 am 
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So potentially picking up your terminator BTS and flying off with a thawk could be a game losing move if you've already lost your 2nd most expensive unit? Ouch!

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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:10 pm 
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Yup, twas always thus.

And this is why Necrons formations phasing out in the third turn can be so problematic. . . . ;D


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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Can someone quote chapter and verse on that please? The rulebook just states that BTS is the most expensive formation in the opposing army with no stipulation about tabletop shenanigans

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 Post subject: Re: Couple of queries from Glasgow Tournment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:23 am 
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It's in the FAQ for Spacecraft and also in the victory conditions
Quote:
Q: Do formations that are off board (spacecraft) or in reserve count towards the Break Their Spirit goal?
A: No. However, a formation that enters play and is destroyed (e.g. an aircraft) would count towards the goal.

This came about many years ago when people pointed out that spacecraft could be the most expensive of an army, and since it could not be destroyed this could be exploited to deny the BTS goal. Because the FAQ is worded in general terms, it can be translated to be the the destruction of the most expensive on-table formation.
This was noted by Dptdexys higher up the thread


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