Tactical Command

Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
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Author:  primarch [ Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!


Ah, displacer fields, what fun!

Still like conversion fields better and models with multiple fixed saves impossible to destroy!!


Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!

I admit that I liked the variety of weapons available in the early RT days myself.

I never did understand why anyone would want to use Eldar shuriken weapons when better laser rifles and bolters existed.

Conversion beamers were cool! ?:blues:


Author:  primarch [ Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:19 am ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!


I think that they weren't as "defined" as they are now, so you could mix and match a lot. It was the only version where a Rogue Trader could stomp around with Jokaero weapons and all sorts of wierd things.

Remember the psycannon?

That was a cool weapon!


Author:  stormseer [ Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!

..Well the psycannon is back now, after being re-intoduced in Inquisitor, and following that in the 40k Codex: Demonhunters army list.. However, I don't know if it differs from the older version; I believe it is now a boltgun style weapon, which fires special ammunition for killing demons....

Author:  primarch [ Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!


The original weapon was pretty deadly versus demons since it didn't need to roll versus the toughness. Once it hit it caused d6 wounds or something like that. Very nasty.


Author:  GA101 [ Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!

I'd definitely say that the tone of 40k has become very black and white even in the short time I've played it.

When I first read the fluff, the Imperium was this all powerful organisation that, if managed correctly, would wipe the floor with every other thing in the galaxy, but as we all know, half the point is that the Imperium can't be managed correctly without an active leader.

Even still, the main focus was to keep the organisation together, wars with aliens etc, were just a side show, nothing important. Also it was pure luck of the dice if you were to live a nice, luxurius life on some backwater planet or a living hell in a hive in the Imperium. Half the idea behind chaos was the fact they were rebelling against an inherently horrible system.

Now the Imperium seems to be under constant threat of destruction, all men to the pumps, man overboard! kind of stuff.

However, the introduction of the TAU, the ultimate "goody-two-shoes" army, kinda says it all.

Author:  Athmos [ Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!


Actually I don't think the Imperium is presented as being the "good side" or whatever. Nowadays players, maybe younger, tend to read it that way, but I am sometime unsure if they know what words like "Inquisition," "heresy," and such mean.

The Imperium is still a place heavy with propaganda, slavery, hereditary power, strong rascism (toward Xenos, but also abhumans, mutants, psykers, heretics, etc.)...

While I regret some of the art that was in RT, and the darker look of older Space Marines artwork, I consider that they have done a very good rewarping of the Inquisition.

Some of them seem to be very perceptive secret investigators, with a sometime very strong critical view on the Imperium politics, while some others are just Nazi guys. They always had been presented as two-sided, and GW had just reflected that in the background developed in Inquisitor and then the Daemon Hunter Codex, with factions and Inquisitors going after other Inquisitors.

The Quixos story developed (a heretical Inquisitor who turned some chaos stuff against chaos, and even tried to shut the EoT down, but was killed before by others integrist Inquisitors) is just about that: the Imperium strives to survive, but is actually immobilised by the strong conservatives forces within its "Kafka-like" administration, etc.

I consider thoses aspects were indeed not so badly conserved. 2nd edition 40K was far worse for all that.
It's just the opposite of black and white! They preserved the duality of the thing, with a lot of nuances. They're even Inquisitor that think that Horus may have been right, even if not strong enough.

The Space marines are still some brutish fanatical warriors who sometimes slaughter entire civil population in repression...
I think the WH40K background is still very dark, and with many nuances.

I also regret thoses details there were about various Xenos (Catachan Devils, Ambuls, etc), but I can understand such things had never gotten much details, since players always prefered to have some more fluff for their armies. And all is now about balance because this is what most player are looking for in armies list. Just go take a look on various forums to convince you...


Author:  Legion 4 [ Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!


They have toned things down a bit...

But the difference between the Imperium & Chaos is like the one between Hitler's 3rd Reich & Stalin's Communist Russia!

In G/W's 40K universe, war is a good thing... but, then again, it is Sci-Fi!

Author:  primarch [ Thu Aug 21, 2003 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!


For me at least the only "feel" I fancy for 40k, was the original RT heavy-Gothic style. The Imperium is a dreadful dictatorship when ignorance is fostered to keep control (forget that shielding from chaos PC garbage).

Chaos sprung from humanities' shortcomings and wants to enslave it, Orks were fearsome enemies (not the bozo-circus clowns they became latter), Eldar were aloof and mysterious. There were SQUATS and all the other "abhumans."

It had style and wasn't PC. That's what got me into GW games and that what I imagine when I play Epic.


Author:  Athmos [ Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!

Hi !
Sorry i'm not sure what you mean by "PC", Primarch.

I certainly think the ork feeling have turn a more circus like, and that's certainly a shame.

But about general fluff, if you get through the current 40K core rule (the "black tome"), you'll find that the background is still very dark about the imperium. Is is even stated as the worst regime the humanity has ever known. I have gone through it again lately (mostly because of this discussion), and you'll find very dark tone in the background page. And mind you, there are still table to generate world, and you'll find a carnivorous plant still able to eat some scout in the "Hostile world" generation table.

I think the Background feel less dark mainly because of the illustrations. John Blache have remain very dark/Gothic, but all other artists are now "lighter", where in the original RT book they ALL were very dark.

I think it is partially due to the success and GW being now a way bigger affair (even if it was yet big, it is now enormous).
At the time, i think artists were producing their visions, and then designers and writers looks for a place to put it in the book. Now, i think everything is planned, maqueted and that art is made for a specific emplacement on a specific page most of the time. This is just the normal serious way of doing it.

We thus end with less personal and characterfull visions, on average (there are still very good arts).

Just a try to explain this feeling as by re-reading the book the background does not seem lighier or less gothis than in the past. It is certainly less mysterious, but that is simply inevitable after more than a decade of expanding.

A precision : i am speaking about the core rule, as there was no codex anyway at the old time, can we compare with realms of chaos or freebooterz ? if so, i certainly miss thoses, but it seem to be something different, almost more about boot thickness and fluff quantities than change in it


Author:  Legion 4 [ Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!

PC = Politically Correct, a phenomena rampant in the US which is a "kinder, gentler" version of reality.

Much of the old G/W Fluff has evolved in that direction... ?

Hey we all need a group hug! :laugh: ?

Ah stop, I'm getting all "misty-eyed!" :blush: ?}:)

Author:  primarch [ Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!


Legion4 gave you the definition of PC and its definitely a trand amongst companies that have a certain amount of success to "water down" what ever gritty background they have to not annoy or offend anyone.

This happened to D&D in the days TSR owned it where they caved in to the negative press and changed devils and demons into "tanari and baatezu". Pretty silly.

GW has done some of this, they dont want the "kiddies" (their major target audience) moms to get upset about having demons and other "Gothic" features in games they buy for their kids. So their background and characters get more "cartoony" as time goes by.


Author:  Athmos [ Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!

OK thanks, i understand politicaly correct, we use it in french also (Politiquement corect), i just didn't know the acronyms.

Yes, on the whole, the GW universe has gone more PC, but i just re-read the background parts of the Black tome, and the emperor still eat thousand of souls per days, most of humanity is still almost slaves, and there is a description of the administratum as being a gigantic blind kafkaiesque organisation which is still pretty scary, per example.

I feel that on the overall, the Background is at least a bit less gothic/dark etc, but it depends on the sources. I think the descriptions of the spaces marines in their codex does not represent them as scary fanatical warrior, which they are, for example.

In fact i'm afraid that the very clean mini painting is a big factor, but it's kind of a GW trademark now... An  other factor would be the cleanness of the actual game materials; RT was a big book, the maquette was not so good, it was put together in a little random order, Not to speak about some completely anarchic book like Realms of Chaos, etc.

Reading very clean book with neat illustrations, bright photos of very clean minis, excellent maquette, all the same organisation... whatever may be the background stated in text, the impression would still not be as dark as it was in the old days.

Actually, i have the same impression, it's just that having re-read those pages, i felt i had to mention that this background, in the Black tome at least, was actually still quite dark, far more indeed than in the second edition (as i recall it that is). If it's in, then it should be stated... all is not as bad as we may think.

I'm sorry, i'm afraid i don't know the english word for "maquette", but in french it is the layout of text, illustrations and photos on a text page (in a magazine or a book for example).


Author:  stormseer [ Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!

..Have to agree with you Athmos- the 3rd Ed main rulebook still portrays the Imperium as being a very dark and horrible place, and I also agree with your points about layouts and the "clean" painting style... Some art has got a bit less gothic and menacing, but just take a look at the Inquisitor rulebook for a rather nice selection of new "gothicness" ...some of GW's best art to date imo...

I do love the older art though- John Blance in particular, but also Ian Miller and Adrian Smith's stuff is superb... really twisted and strange... Hopefully JB will do the 40k 4th Ed cover...?  ???

I disagree with some of what you say about the "cartoon-ising" Primarch- GW still has horrific demons as very much a key part of the background- there are very graphic and "gritty" stories and art both in WD and published by the Black Library...

The Orks though I think you are correct- at current I dislike the rather "silly" feel of the background- I can't say I loved the older stuff all that much either, but the newer slightly idiotic style is not quite how one of the Imperium's main foes should seem imho... :L

-Just my 2 pence.. :;):

Author:  Jimbo [ Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!

Quote (stormseer @ 31 2003 Aug.,20:22)
The Orks though I think you are correct- at current I dislike the rather "silly" feel of the background- I can't say I loved the older stuff all that much either, but the newer slightly idiotic style is not quite how one of the Imperium's main foes should seem imho...

the Orks certainly have an element of humour about them, but in my opinion they are certainly less cartoony than they were in WH40K 2nd edition. Actually I can't ever remember Orks been anything but a "cartoon" style alien race!

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