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Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!

 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:55 pm 
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In another thread, the subject has come up about how GW has toned down or lightened up the background. Some of the darker aspects seem to have been dropped.

Do you agree or disagree?

What changes have you seen?

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 7:51 pm 
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I am one of those sad guys who has been in the GW hobby for far too long. I have Rogue Trader and both the Relms of Chaos books knocking around somewhere, along with Space Marine, Titan Legions, et al.

Right now, for me, the 40K aspect is at a mid point. It is not as Gothic as it started out, and I really do like the old versions of the background and feeling of the games.

Still, it radically went the other way about the time of 2nd Ed Epic and I hated that, so I am fairly ok with it by now. I do feel that the game and background has moved too far from technology, to the point that torpedoes are loaded by hand (or large teams of hands) in Gothic and other such things.

I would prefer a more sci-fi aspect to the whole thing.

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 8:39 pm 
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I think EoT will change the tone of it all...But only if it is a total victory for Imperial or Chaos, minor victories won't do much...

If Chaos wins totally, I think the Gothic nature you speak of will return, but if Imperial totally wins, we will have a much lighter, Chaos and Gothic-free galaxy.

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:32 pm 
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I started out with the original Rogue Trader. I remember such things as the Emperor eating many souls a day to stay alive. These kinds of details gave the overall background a very dark and sinister feel. Now it seems like it has gone Comic book like.

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:44 pm 
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I think, the Emperor still eats souls, I'm fairly sure that thats mentioned in the 40k rulebook, and John Blanche's artwork is still superbly grim and gothic..

The Inquisition are not portrayed as being particularly 'good' in my opinion; sure, they purge heretics, etc., but they are all very dark figures, hiding many secrets, and not always, it seems, working for the Imperium's best interests... They seem to be figures of dread in most 40k fiction, not individuals that are welcomed with rejoicing in a community they enter.... :L

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 3:11 am 
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I agree- the fluff has changed substantially since I got RT those years ago. ?In somes ways it has developed and fleshed some bits out, but in other areas it has stagnated. ?

Remember the Slann? ?
Imperial Penal and Beastmen Regiments? ?
Ahh... ?
Then there was the squats etc. etc. Anyhow...

It is strange that as the fluff has changed to make the Imperium a brighter less Gothic place while at the same time the alien and chaos threats have increased. One would have thought that in dire times, the Inquisition and buddies would have clamped down tighter.

I like the fluff. I've said before they we all must do to some extent or we'd be off playing other more realistic 6mm Sci-Fi games. But it's the inconsistencies and dramatic changes that really annoy me. Especially when its just a case of GW writers not being aware of whats already been done on a particular topic.

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 5:36 am 
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Yes, being an Epic player since '90, I have see many, many changes, as you all have mentioned.  It has become a bit more like a Comic book and less dark/Gothic in recent years.  I'd prefer, like CyberShadow, a little more Sci-fi, but we can't get too far away from the Gothic roots.  But like many things from G/W, who knows ?  ???

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 4:42 pm 
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Sure, the GW-verse has been toning down in many ways, but look at this:

We now have the Gestapo-like Inquistion...

Abhumans are slowly disappearing...

SMs are becoming even bigger bullet heads...

Xenoforms are multiplying and organizing like mad...

The "original" TM death race, the Necrons, are back with their "star gods"...

However, having said that, I feel that things have mostly taken a turn for the worse. Eliminating the Squats took an immense amount of color from the GW-verse and the constant game-based culling of the armies is just plain annoying.

I wish the story would develop more than the game...

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 6:11 pm 
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Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 04 2003 July,16:42)
Sure, the GW-verse has been toning down in many ways, but look at this:
We now have the Gestapo-like Inquistion...


We have always had the Inquisition.

Rogue Trader Book, page 133, has a comment and there is a whole section on pages 142-145 that includes stats and equipment (or to quote there is no item of equipment which is unavilable to the Inquisition ).

Xenoforms are multiplying and organizing like mad...


I would have said you are right about the organising, but the Rogue Trader book is full of Xenomorphs...

- Crotalids
- Catachan Face-Eaters
- Zombies (they're back now in EoT)
- Ambulls
- Gyrinx
And not forgetting:
- Gas Fungus

To name but only a few of the many alien lifeforms listed.

It's difficult to say how things are changed, but having both the Rogue Trader and WH40K3 rulebooks, I would have to say on balance that in my opinion the tone has changed and it is lighter... and I mean on balance, some things are darker and some things are lighter.

:blues:

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 7:43 pm 
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Jimbo,

We have always had the Inquisition.


You're right, of course (Aren't you always right?  :D ).

I supposed what I should have said is that the inquisition is really getting fleshed out through novels, GW-"colour background" AKA fluff, and even the new Daemon Hunters army. Before, things were much more sketchy.

The Inquisition was "gothic-horror" bad before, but they're heading towards "Nazi nastiness" horror now. The idea to name the head poobah after Torquemada is rather horrid in my book. It's just bad taste.

I would have said you are right about the organising, but the Rogue Trader book is full of Xenomorphs...


I miss those guys. I think that GW is cutting away many of the xenoforms and abhumans that gave it more attraction value before.

Speaking of that, I, in bad judgement, traded away my Rogue Trader years ago, I'm looking for a copy again. If anyone can help, please PM me.

Shalom,
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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 7:50 pm 
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Quote (Jimbo @ 04 2003 July,10:11)
It's difficult to say how things are changed, but having both the Rogue Trader and WH40K3 rulebooks, I would have to say on balance that in my opinion the tone has changed and it is lighter... and I mean on balance, some things are darker and some things are lighter.


When I say it has gotten lighter, I do not mean it is Barnie in Power Armor! :-)

For me, the overall feel has gone from Horror Novel to Comic Book. It is not that there are not any dark items or people in the present materials, it is that the dark issues that I noticed before have been softening.

Dafrca

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 9:40 pm 
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I have to respectfully disagree with you here, Maksim. I do not think that the loss of the Squats in particular has been detrimental to the general storyline and fluff of the 40k universe, (clamps mouth shut to avoid saying anything else about Squats and setting off flames... :;): ).

With regard to the various other species that have disappeared over the years, I think that some of them were never all that interesting in the first place, or did not seem to key with the background - the Zoats in the first Tyranid list seemed out of place for me. I prefer the newer style army far more than the older one, which seemed rather 'bodged-together' - the new 'swarm' style is great, and is also helped by the far superior models...

Things like the Slaan hmmm... there was one model I've seen, and it didn't inspire me in the way that much of the other older 40k stuff does... and I guess that, was one of the reasons that they faded away even quicker than the Squats did....

Also remember that many of these creatures have not actually been 'written out,' but have just not been developed any further, leaving GW with future points and ideas to build on...

Perhaps we may even see a Crotalid army, or one featuring them at some period... :;):

I wish the story would develop more than the game...


I also disagree here, we see the storyline moving on all the time, with events like the Gothic War, the Third War for Armageddon, and even now, the huge Eye of Terror campaign...

The Black library has also done a great job by producing their novels, which, while not all are the cream of SF, give a great sense of what it is like to live in the 40k universe, and the darkness and horror of the time; books like the Eisenhorn trilogy and the Gaunts Ghosts books are superb for this - they are packed full of details that we, the fans, can jump upon and discuss to death in forums like this, providing far more than just the rulebooks and WD do on their own...

Phew, ranting over... just my thoughts... :D

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 10:11 pm 
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Storm-Seer,

Thanks for the great retort. You make some great points.

I guess that it's my shortcoming that I haven't read the 40k novels. I generally associate game novels with trash. After the first few Battletech novels, I began to tire of game books. I have never been able to read the Star Trek novels. The original Star Wars novels were good, but the post-movie stuff was OK or worse.

Genrally speaking, I feel better about a novel if the book came before the movie...

Ohhhh... for a Crotalid army!  :cool:

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

P.S.
I personally like Slann as the Old Ones, progenitors of the universe.

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 10:34 pm 
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Oh, yeah I can't agree with you more Maksim- Most game related books that I've read apart from the Black Library stuff is bilge, D&D books, Battletech etc... I enjoy the StarWars EU stuff, but yeah, the older stuff (Zahn etc is the best imo, the Thrawn trilogy has a storyline far better than the new films.....

I do reccomend the BL books, especially the ones I mention.. Gaunts Ghosts for a more 'battle, tactics, soldier-y' stuff, and the Eisenhorn triology for cool 40k details, great plot, good charcters etc.... Grahm Mc Niel's (sp?) books are great too, particually Storm of Iron.

Some BL books are crap tho.. so don't be put off by one bad one...

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 Post subject: Changes in GW-verse Fluff Tone!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 11:31 pm 
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The Squats are alive & well in our Epic 40K universe, regardless of G/W's "official dogma"! :angry:

If Jervis and the boyz don't like it - come get some!!! }:)

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