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Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6

 Post subject: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:11 pm 
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Late in coming because I foolishly forgot to hit submit...

Anyway this is the latest Eldar Titan list.

Major changes include:

Return of Wraithlords (2 kinds!). They may garrison but only at your Wraithgate. Also includes a leader upgrade called the Wraithseer.
Shifting of knights and wraiths into the 1/3 section.
Changes to Wraithknight weapons and addition of Suncannons. They come in pairs and you just select one of them.
Fighters and bombers revert to coming in threes.

Tell me what you think and please play, play play!


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:02 pm 
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Nice to see variant Wraithlords. If you want to nod to history, you might use the Banshee Assault (2x Powerfist and a missile launcher) and War Cry Support (Powerfist and Lascannon, I mean Bright Lance) variants, possibly even adding the Spirit Warrior (Powerfist and Plasma) (see attached).


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:39 pm 
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Sweet stuff, I'll go and update the Army Forge file for this straight away

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:48 pm 
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I forgot about the old names. That is something to look into. And imagine Wraithlords with jump packs!

Thanks Mrdiealot.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:43 pm 
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Cool...Nice work.. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:47 pm 
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It is a bit unclear if Spirit Stones has been removed from the list or not. It seems like it's the intention, but they're still in the reference section, and there's a blank row in the Upgrades section.

In my opinion they shouldn't have it. I understand the reasoning behind giving stuff leader, but it makes no sense from the perspective of the fluff.

There's also a typo ("Titian") on the twin Revenants description.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:09 am 
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Here's the army forge file for those who are interested: https://magnusdurr.github.io/snapfire/w ... rion_NETEA

I'm pushing it to the main page as well, but that will take a while to show up.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:03 am 
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Had a look through of the stats and points, and have a few questions:

- The price difference between (Phantom + Exarch) and (Warlock) is only 25pts, which gives you Farsight and access to the Psychic Lance; There seems to be no reason to ever not take a Warlock. Is that intentional?

- Why the massive debuff of the Titan D-Cannon? There is no good reason to take it any more...

- The cost of Wraithlord upgrades seem excessive - the comparable Iyanden formation is 6x Wraithlord + spiritseer for 350pts, and that is certainly not too cheap. The base formation is OK at 250pts, but the additional Wraithlords should be +50 each.

- The Wraithknights seem out of synch with the other Wraithknights - the Towering Destroyers from the Exodite list. Aren't they the same thing?

Otherwise interesting, keep up the good work :)


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:48 am 
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Thanks, game report here:
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=33651

Quick first thoughts.
Force structure and changes - is a bit limited with 1/3 option maybe. Also don't think aircraft will be used given integral AA of other units, size of formations now, and need for feet on ground to contest objectives.

Wraithknights
Assume holofield is mistake, as if changing inv save to holofield they also need reinforced armour otherwise they only have a single 5+ save. Even 5+/5+ they die quickly. In game report above I assumed this was a mistake and treated them as 5+/5+ saves.
Close combat version is sub-par compared to other two, I'd give it back 4+/5+, though even then not sure I'd take them as CC is generally much less useful compared to shooting and firefight, and 3x 4+TK feels too unreliable for the situations when you can use them.
(RE comparison with Exodite list, Bright Stallion in that list seems overpowered (12x 45cm MW3+ for 375 points)).

Also as above, Wraithlords overpriced. Not something we have really thought a good choice even at 300 for 6 in Iyanden, let alone 250 for 4. At 200 for 4, +50 per per extra Wraithlord and spiritseer that would match other list though. Wraithlord Harbringer is redundant given other AA in list that you have to take, and very weak stats make it a poor choice on top of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:00 pm 
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Is this a place to go 'old school' and bring back the Spirit Troupe?

3 Wraithguard and 3 Waithlords for 300 points. Replace 3 Wraithlords with 3 Wave Serpents for free. Add a Spirtseer (see Iyandan) for 50 points?

This makes the Titan Vampire irrelevant...maybe replace with a hunter? Not sure where air-assault fits in anyway....fluff or just rule of cool?

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Markconz wrote:
Assume holofield is mistake, as if changing inv save to holofield they also need reinforced armour otherwise they only have a single 5+ save. Even 5+/5+ they die quickly. In game report above I assumed this was a mistake and treated them as 5+/5+ saves.


Where did Holofield (5+) come from? Not supported by any rule. Revenant Titan's don't have reinforced Armour, but have a holofield save (3+ as per rules). Engines of Vaul have holofields in the fluff, but have a 5+ reinforced in epic. I think either go the Engines of Vaul path (5+ reinforced), or the Revenant path (proper holofield 3+, but not reinforced).

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:51 pm 
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They had 5+ RA with a 5+ inv in 4.2.5. That's effectively 5+RA with a holofield, and you only have to role two dice instead of three.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:11 pm 
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Dave wrote:
They had 5+ RA with a 5+ inv in 4.2.5. That's effectively 5+RA with a holofield, and you only have to role two dice instead of three.


Not following where you're going? Why not just give them a 3+ holofield save (not reinforced) as per the rules for holofields and then it's one roll? Or use the rules for reinforced armour then it's two?

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:37 pm 
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Because a 3+ Inv save, or a 5+ RA save is a lot worse than a 5+RA save with a 5+ inv. You could use either of the first two, but the unit's survivability will be much lower than what it was in 4.2.5.

All I'm saying is that 4.2.5's 5+RA with an additional 5+ invulnerable can be modeled with a 5+RA with holofield. Same-ish survivability, one less one-off special rule, one less die roll.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.6
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Because a 3+ Inv save, or a 5+ RA save is a lot worse than a 5+RA save with a 5+ inv. You could use either of the first two, but the unit's survivability will be much lower than what it was in 4.2.5.

All I'm saying is that 4.2.5's 5+RA with an additional 5+ invulnerable can be modeled with a 5+RA with holofield. Same-ish survivability, one less one-off special rule, one less die roll.


Ahh, I see where you're coming from now, and understand.

I think we're in agreement - I'm on board with a 5+ reinforced save. That is the standard that has been set (see Engines of Vaul) for Eldar non-titans war engines.

As I've said before - there is the option of just using the holofield rules as written (3+ save) without reinforced armour.

Thought bubble - what are peoples (and sub-AC) thoughts on WE1 (I know that in itself is a bit unheard of) with the 'as written' holofield rule on 3+ save. So all the rules of a WE, but only 1 damage capacity? Bloody hard to hit, but devastated when they are hit. Kinda feel like what they should be? Or is that unworkable rules-wise?

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Harry


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