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2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:00 am 
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ffoley wrote:
could rebrand BT eldar as "codex eldar" by just dropping VS and COTYK (in line with fluff) then create a BT specific developmental list with those two units plus heavy aspect theme.

I would have agreed but that goes against EA list philosophy. It's why we have a supposed Steel Legion list rather than a generic IG list.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:35 am 
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Other lists out there have to contend with the 1:2 ratio. Dark Eldar have to use 1 core per 2, while some of the titan lists limit it to a 2:3 ratio, or even a 1:1 ratio. Many Eldar lists seem to have the ability to vary their list as they need. Not so other lists out there. Some lists like Eldar, Orks, Tyranids have only 1 or if lucky 2 core choices. Some lists have 3 or even 4 core choices, while Space Marines can pick from a large list of options.

I say keep it at a 1:2 ratio, but add in another formation to their core choices, perhaps the swords of Vaul, which most lists tend to take anyway.

The same can be done with the Dark Eldar list adding Wyches to the core choice Kalabite formations.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:20 am 
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Yeah - but a 1-2 ratio wrecks builds which aren't currently a problem (as discussed on various threads). The only list that anyone has contended is overpowered is Mic's (and even that's not got anything like consensus) so the focus should be on how we limit that list (or something very close to that list's scope) without damaging a whole load of other variations no-one has an issue with.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:07 am 
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StevekCole wrote:
Yeah - but a 1-2 ratio wrecks builds which aren't currently a problem (as discussed on various threads). The only list that anyone has contended is overpowered is Mic's (and even that's not got anything like consensus) so the focus should be on how we limit that list (or something very close to that list's scope) without damaging a whole load of other variations no-one has an issue with.


Hey Steve,

There has been a fair bit of discussion around my list it's true. It was put forward as a mere example of a successful build for BT within our meta. I and others have concern with the Biel Tan list as a whole, not just a particular build. While I recognise this view is not shared by yourself and many others it is an issue with has reached critical mass in our own community and hence these discussions.

I am sorry if some proposed changes threaten the viability of certain builds (I am being sincere). But in the part of the world I am in, I would like to see players enjoying their games against eldar again. Enjoyment of the game is the single most important reason we all play it. I feel confident in saying that the current Biel Tan list can create more effective builds than any other army list currently available...period!

So I for one am happy to discuss an test possible changes so that everyone is enjoying the game. I think Deb makes some valid points.

Cheers

Mic


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:16 am 
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Deb wrote:
Other lists out there have to contend with the 1:2 ratio. Dark Eldar have to use 1 core per 2, while some of the titan lists limit it to a 2:3 ratio, or even a 1:1 ratio. Many Eldar lists seem to have the ability to vary their list as they need. Not so other lists out there. Some lists like Eldar, Orks, Tyranids have only 1 or if lucky 2 core choices. Some lists have 3 or even 4 core choices, while Space Marines can pick from a large list of options.

I say keep it at a 1:2 ratio, but add in another formation to their core choices, perhaps the swords of Vaul, which most lists tend to take anyway.

The same can be done with the Dark Eldar list adding Wyches to the core choice Kalabite formations.

Making falcons a core choice would free up more support spots completing negating the intention of the proposed change

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:25 am 
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Steve54 wrote:
Deb wrote:
Other lists out there have to contend with the 1:2 ratio. Dark Eldar have to use 1 core per 2, while some of the titan lists limit it to a 2:3 ratio, or even a 1:1 ratio. Many Eldar lists seem to have the ability to vary their list as they need. Not so other lists out there. Some lists like Eldar, Orks, Tyranids have only 1 or if lucky 2 core choices. Some lists have 3 or even 4 core choices, while Space Marines can pick from a large list of options.

I say keep it at a 1:2 ratio, but add in another formation to their core choices, perhaps the swords of Vaul, which most lists tend to take anyway.

The same can be done with the Dark Eldar list adding Wyches to the core choice Kalabite formations.

Making falcons a core choice would free up more support spots completing negating the intention of the proposed change


Perhaps, but her observations of the ratio comparison with other lists is valid.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:12 am 
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Hi Mic,

Likewise, not doubt on my part that you guys have genuine issues and concerns with the list. My only point, and I think we're on the same page here, is that ideally we create a fix for the issues folk have found with the list with a minimal impact on areas/builds/etc where there aren't concerns. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Mic Fair wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
Deb wrote:
Other lists out there have to contend with the 1:2 ratio. Dark Eldar have to use 1 core per 2, while some of the titan lists limit it to a 2:3 ratio, or even a 1:1 ratio. Many Eldar lists seem to have the ability to vary their list as they need. Not so other lists out there. Some lists like Eldar, Orks, Tyranids have only 1 or if lucky 2 core choices. Some lists have 3 or even 4 core choices, while Space Marines can pick from a large list of options.

I say keep it at a 1:2 ratio, but add in another formation to their core choices, perhaps the swords of Vaul, which most lists tend to take anyway.

The same can be done with the Dark Eldar list adding Wyches to the core choice Kalabite formations.

Making falcons a core choice would free up more support spots completing negating the intention of the proposed change


Perhaps, but her observations of the ratio comparison with other lists is valid.

I'd never seen a competitive Biel tan list with more guardians than falcons and the overwhelming majority have more falcons so making them core frees up more support slots.
Of the other points in Debs post it's correct that some lists have more restrictive ratios than the BT in steel legion, black legion etc but also some have far less restrictions - Orks, marines etc. It doesn't really alter that the change could be made but doesn't provide any support that it should.
I still don't particularly see the logic in making a change that doesn't affect the problems that some are reporting but which does affect builds nobody has reported a problem with.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:48 pm 
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I don't think it's helping the cause to ask for changes to support slots when it's fairly clear
- it makes no difference to power level
- it makes the list more boring
- theres precedent of equal and more flexibility elsewhere (and conformity of lists is not an objective)
- it invalidates people's armies
- theres a lot of opposition to such a change
We should pick our fights if we want to get meaningful change.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Guys,

We want people to contribute on this forum and not be afraid to post their thoughts. Good on Deb for having the guts to bring something different to the table to try and address some of issues raised. We want open discussion. I would like to think we will get to more testing soon and I am sure it will provide us more to discuss. I know there is a lot of concern out there about possible change, but isn't that why we have the testing phase? I have started to test Tims farsight rule and to date haven't seen anyone else trial it. I do appreciate many guys taking my Cancon list for a spin and offering feedback. However this thread was started to explore the ratio change to BielTan and I would claim that 4 pages of discussion would warrant testing at some point soon.

Cheers

Mic


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:54 pm 
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Hi Mic and others, could I repeat the request to define further the issue that the Australian community has with the BT list. Saying that playing against the list 'is not fun' could be applied to many lists (RA4+ Chaos lists are my 'bête noire'), and could equally be caused by other reasons. What is it that makes this particular list so unpleasant?

Without more specific issues to address, we will end up with a series of circular arguments around changes that may not really fix things. The only sensible way to address things at the moment is to try applying a series of minor changes that slowly weaken the BT list, in the hope that at some point it becomes more 'acceptable', whatever that means.

What are the main concerns? Is it
- The triple retain Alpha Strike in the first turn, or triple shooting at the start of a turn?
- The triple retain in general (as mentioned by others above)?
- The activation advantage enjoyed by the more successful lists?
- The presence of formations with double Inspiring?
- The Void Spinner's range with disrupt?
- Multiple Void Spinners?
- The list is 'too flexible' and lacks a 'theme'
- Some combination or all of the above?
- Something else?


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:15 pm 
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Mic Fair wrote:
Guys,

We want people to contribute on this forum and not be afraid to post their thoughts. Good on Deb for having the guts to bring something different to the table to try and address some of issues raised. We want open discussion. I would like to think we will get to more testing soon and I am sure it will provide us more to discuss. I know there is a lot of concern out there about possible change, but isn't that why we have the testing phase? I have started to test Tims farsight rule and to date haven't seen anyone else trial it. I do appreciate many guys taking my Cancon list for a spin and offering feedback. However this thread was started to explore the ratio change to BielTan and I would claim that 4 pages of discussion would warrant testing at some point soon.

Cheers

Mic

I'm not sure what the problem is, Deb posted something and then I made points disagreeing with it.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Mic Fair wrote:
Guys,

We want people to contribute on this forum and not be afraid to post their thoughts. Good on Deb for having the guts to bring something different to the table to try and address some of issues raised. We want open discussion. I would like to think we will get to more testing soon and I am sure it will provide us more to discuss. I know there is a lot of concern out there about possible change, but isn't that why we have the testing phase? I have started to test Tims farsight rule and to date haven't seen anyone else trial it. I do appreciate many guys taking my Cancon list for a spin and offering feedback. However this thread was started to explore the ratio change to BielTan and I would claim that 4 pages of discussion would warrant testing at some point soon.

Cheers

Mic

To be honest I've your list twice and at least three other people in the UK have tested it in half a dozen games and I can't see that they have presented any issues that need addressing. If I don't agree with a change and have tested a list and found no need for a change then I'm using my weekly game to test a development/experimental list that needs testing.
My POV after playing the list several times and reading batreps here and the experiences of the list author is that its a very good list for the meta that it is used in. Mic Fair is obviously one of the best Australian players and would do well with most competitive lists. The particular list is competitive, but not OTT, in any meta but in the particular meta its strengths push it into the OTT bracket as they correlate with the weaknesses, or more exactly preferred builds there.
Are any of the opponents of the list or you yourself willing to give the tactics and lists that have been suggested that will take advantage of the lists weaknesses?

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:22 pm 
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I'm playing Mic's list with my Marines tomorrow.

I'm a crap player and Tim is good though, so I expect to lose, heh.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:59 pm 
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E&C don't sell yourself short ;) but thanks for taking the list for a test drive.
Steve, there are some great players in Australia, The Shadowlord being chief amoung them! But I repspect your experince in the game and what you are saying about this issue.
Ginger, as we are spilling over and beyond the ratio proposal I suggest we move this part of the discussion back to BT issues.

Mic


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