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2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices

 Post subject: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:42 am 
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Right, this suggestion looks perfect for a bit of Theory-hammer and an internet discussion.

It has been proposed that the ratio of support choices in the Biel-Tan list be changed from 1:3 to 1:2.

Can people please post their current lists and what changes they think this ratio change will make.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:02 am 
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Aspects (FD Autarch, FD Exarch, 2 Dark Reapers, 4 Dire Avengers)
Aspects (2 FD Exarchs, 2 Dark Reapers. 4 Dire Avengers)
Guardians (2 Heavy Weapons)

Rangers x5
Rangers x5
Falcons (2 Firestorms)
Falcons (2 Firestorms)
Falcons (2 Firestorms)
Void Spinner
Void Spinner

Vampire
Vampire
Wraithship
So need to lose 1 support, swap out falcons for either Nightwings (2 rangers as well), upgrade wraith to dragon and boost ranger numbers or mech the guardians.

The change would be more problematic to Wave Serpent builds and WG+WL builds, neither of which has been reported as problematic.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:16 am 
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Here's my B-T list

Wraithgate
AVATAR
Aspect Warrior Warhost - Shining Spears (Exarch & Autarch)
Aspect Warrior Warhost - Dire Avengers, Dark Reapers (2x Exarch) & Striking Scorpions
Eldar Guardian Warhost - Farseer, Guardians, Wraithguard & Wraithlords (BTS)
Rangers (5)
Falcons (2 Firestorm)
Storm Serpent
Void Spinner
Void Spinner
Jetbikes (5) & Viper (1)
Vampire Raider
Vampire Raider

3 core, 6 Support - No change to my list

I should note that I mainly play variant Eldar lists and admit that this is not necessarily the best build out there.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:38 am 
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My standard list is

WRAITHGATE
AVATAR
ASPECT WARRIOR WARHOST - 4 Dire Avenger, 2 Exarch, 2 Fire Dragon, 2 Dark Reaper
ASPECT WARRIOR WARHOST - Exarch, Autarch, 4 Dire Avenger, 2 Dark Reaper, 2 Fire Dragon
GUARDIAN WARHOST - Farseer, 7 Guardians, 3 Wraithguard, 3 Wraithlords
FALCON TROUPE - 3 Falcon, 2 Fire Storm
FALCON TROUPE - 3 Falcon, 2 Fire Storm
ENGINES OF VAUL TROUPE - Storm Serpent or FIRE PRISMS (depending on how air heavy I think a tournament will be)
VOID SPINNER
RANGER TROUPE
RANGER TROUPE
RANGER TROUPE

Titan/Air Third
VAMPIRE RAIDER
VAMPIRE RAIDER

The 1-2 is a pretty annoying change for me as it means I need to fundementally change my list. The most likely change would be to split my BTS up into a 3rd unit of aspects/mech guardians + regular guardians and convert the SS + gate into a void spinner. Something like the below.

ASPECT WARRIOR WARHOST [350]
4 Dire Avenger, 2 Exarch, 2 Fire Dragon, 2 Dark Reaper
ASPECT WARRIOR WARHOST [400]
Exarch, 2 Warp Spider, Autarch, 2 Dire Avenger, 2 Dark Reaper, 2 Fire Dragon
GUARDIAN WARHOST [150]
Farseer, 7 Guardians
VAMPIRE RAIDER [200]
VAMPIRE RAIDER [200]
GUARDIAN WARHOST (MOUNTED) [350] OR ASPECTS
RANGER TROUPE [100]
4 Ranger
RANGER TROUPE [100]
4 Ranger
RANGER TROUPE [100]
4 Ranger
FALCON TROUPE [250]
5 Falcon
FALCON TROUPE [250]
5 Falcon
VOID SPINNER [275]
VOID SPINNER [275]

So basically reasonably successful attempt (but hardly one anyone's been shouting broken at me for) to play something a bit different with Eldar (ie non aspect BTS, not double void spinner, etc) becomes a far more generic double void spinner list and my core points expenditure increases by a whopping 25 points in order to gain access to 12 activations and make the thing competitive - IMO unless you're running a warlock sub 12 activation BT lists just don't get the job done.

If you combine it with a 300 point void spinner then I'm really back to the drawing board. TBH - I'd probably just end up playing something exactly like Steve54s list.

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Last edited by StevekCole on Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:58 am 
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At 3k this change just makes the list selection almost as boring as steel legion. Unlikely to result in anymore aspect warriors being used in a competetive setting (2 in 3k).

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:08 am 
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ffoley wrote:
At 3k this change just makes the list selection almost as boring as steel legion. Unlikely to result in anymore aspect warriors being used in a competetive setting (2 in 3k).


Agree - it'll lead to more standardisation

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:12 pm 
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It wrecks a number of my 'uncompetitive' lists most notably

Guardians
Nightspinners
Falcons + FS
Rangers
Guardians
Nightspinners
Falcons + FS
Rangers
Guardians
Nightspinners
Falcons + FS
Rangers
Vampire
Vampire
Aspects + aut + ex
Nightspinners

Indeed this list also ceases to be viable under the proposed points increases to the three staple formations.

The point is that Eldar forces are intended to have generally weaker armour than other races, the epitome of "soap bubbles holding sledge hammers". A high activation count is an integral part of their strategy, hiding out of the way until they can gather to strike in force using their increased mobility. There are numerous ways of defeating this strategy, mentioned in the other thread.

The Eldar are not intended to be a list that is in your face standing toe to toe and trading blow for blow. They must try to preserve their strength until it is needed. Removing the high activation count and reducing their mobility (full consolidation move) both strike at this core design of the Eldar lists.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Yes, but what changes would you make?

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:48 pm 
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As mainly an opponent of BT Eldar I would make no changes at all, if pushed to propose a change I would make a simple alteration to the ranger formation to make it a minimium of 6 for 150 with the option to add up to 2 more for 25 points each.
This would usualy cut 1 activation from most lists without affecting strategies used.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:03 pm 
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dptdexys wrote:
As mainly an opponent of BT Eldar I would make no changes at all, if pushed to propose a change I would make a simple alteration to the ranger formation to make it a minimium of 6 for 150 with the option to add up to 2 more for 25 points each.
This would usualy cut 1 activation from most lists without affecting strategies used.


This sums it up well for me

One of the biggest complaints about the codex marine list, rightly or wrongly, is that it only has 1-2 competetive builds, surely we don't want to go down that route with Eldar too?

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:02 pm 
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I think the ratio might need to be tweaked on the guardians specifically, not 1:2 globally on the core. BT armies should absolutely be based on around aspects thematically. Actually at least one aspect should be compulsory for BT. They simply don't go to war without them and should form the core of the army. Purchasing a guardian formation and using it to open up a bunch of arty or ranger support is silly from a flavor concept to me. That's probably a 1:2 or a 1:1 ratio but just for them; Not the apsects. Can we rework some of the above to see how JUST guardians doing that affects your lists (I'm on a mobile and doing the maths with the tiny screen isn't in the cards at this moment otherwise I would)? I agree with the lament above that WS/Falc builds need to not be nurtured.

[soapbox rant]
Actually Kyuss, yes you do.

HOWEVER I don't really give a rat's ass if that means your BT in name only favorite build gets toasted in this list. We can easy construct variants to support a wide style of play. I'm sorry Eldar players but there's a huge issue in Eldar land where 90% of everything is BT because they damn list can do just about everything. It's not a broken list (I'll categorically state that). It's just got no focus as to make the rest of Eldar lists be ignored largely because BT can do it all (only slight hyperbole). Honestly I read the BT list and it looks like 2nd edition GENERIC ELDAR. JFC what was JJ thinking. ;D

I just want to point out when Codex Armageddon marines list is discussed getting less focused and wider on theme we're all quick to shut that down but with BT it's the exact opposite. Why is that? Half the BT lists I see don't look like BT armies are supposed to in the fluff. Codex lists get taken because the list is good and air assaults work awesome in EA. It's ok to shrink builds in singular lists while producing more lists thus keeping builds available at the faction level. I'm sorry but if someone today showed up with the BT list for approval you'd ALL laugh it down as needing a more focused theme.

The issue with the limited builds for Steel Legion is a bagatelle. The issue in guard faction is that there's ONLY two real lists and one sorta list that doesn't really work well for Tank Legion that is awkward AF (BSM can be ignored as being dumb and without merit), not that Steel Legion has limited builds. I'd target about 8 very focused lists for a faction as being optimal for a competitive environment (and more for friendly play as those ones don't need as much testing and should be slung out in NetEA campaign books right an left).
[end soapbox rant]

dptdexys wrote:
As mainly an opponent of BT Eldar I would make no changes at all, if pushed to propose a change I would make a simple alteration to the ranger formation to make it a minimium of 6 for 150 with the option to add up to 2 more for 25 points each.
This would usualy cut 1 activation from most lists without affecting strategies used.


Now you're just making BT butt into Alaitoc's space even more. Big ranger options should be their domain.

EDIT:
My rant isn't about any of those builds above (other than, lovingly I might add, Ginger's noncompetitive one above as that's not even remotely looking like what the BT should be known for <3 though would be a bad ass for Ulthwé). They're fine for a balance perspective. However I've seen wayyyy too many retarded guardian spam and ranger spam builds from BT to fill a lifetime. We've got other craftworlds for those types of builds. BT needs some trimming to make other lists shine.

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Just a thought.
Perhaps you want to try the new Ratio with the Ulthwe list development. Specifically that Ulthwe are more focused on Guardians over Aspects and you could see what that would look like or what that might develop into.

In the case of Ulthwe you could do something like Guardians open up 3 support, Aspects open up 2 (or 1 or move from core to a support formation) and give them the Void Spinner for 300pts plus change the Scouts to 150 for 6 units (as these seem to be the most vocal and popular concerns being expressed currently). See what that does.

Just a thought to be a test bed for some of the ideas plus to stress test some of the changes (in addition to any other changes being proposed in the Ulthwe list).


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:56 pm 
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In my universe BT and Ulthwé would both have aspects and guardians in core. They'd simply change the support ration to unlock as inverses of each other (and other changes like fun formation options built right into the Ulthwé guardians)

BT->
Guardian:1
Aspect:3

Ulthwé->
Guardian:3
Aspect:1

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:06 pm 
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I think we need to be careful to focus on whether the army is overpowered rather than whether it is appropriately themed. The two are very different things.

I've got no issue with my favourite build in an over powered army build being nerfed. Where I would have a worry is a perfectly balanced build which is unrelated to the current (still debated) concerns facing the list being torn up without solving the problem at hand.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Proposed Change to Ratio of Support Choices
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:11 pm 
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Where are the competitive builds with guardian or ranger spam, looking at EUK Biel tan records of lists that have over 50% win rate there is only 1 list with more than 2 ranger formations, all have at least 2 aspect formations and none have more than 2 guardians even at up to 4k.
Competitive BT lists are all about having the barrages, shooting, scours etc to deliver you're aspect assaults to beat affect. Ranger or Guardian spam isn't fluffy and isn't used as it isn't competitive just like Scout or assault marine spam in the codex list

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