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2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:35 am 
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isnt consildation moves 5cm always? and would limit everything to a 10cm if its double regardless of speed?

either way i like the ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:09 am 
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Personally, I could live with farsight and maybe a points bump for void spinners. I don't personally believe its necessary but if eldar are ruining people's lives then maybe. 1-2 ratio - I don't see how it solves the issues being raised other than bumping Mic's list back down to 12 activations which a point rise on void spinners would do - personally I'd then sub in vampires which if anything strengthens the list. Consolidate changes I'm totally opposed to as it wrecks a number of builds no one has an issue with. Avatar, it's just not worth 50 points.

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Last edited by StevekCole on Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:46 am 
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Right I have started a fresh thread HERE for a look at how a change in support ratio will affect current players lists. As this is list building we should be able to get a feeling for the impact quite quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:11 am 
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As Steve Cole has mentioned changes to the consolidate part of hit and run are a non-starter for me. I can't see how its a major part of the list that has been reported as a problem and changing it totally guts the wave serpent build and also the Warlock build. Neither of which has been presented as an issue or I've even seen played in that particular meta. Further it would be very problematic to the Saim Hann and Ulthwe lists which rely on it a lot more.

I'd like to see the farsight rule tested, though I think presenting it, and void spinners, as a problem based on games vs steel legion is not representative. Steel legion are pretty unique in that they have small artillery formations and a low SR, very few other lists are going to present this ideal situation.
The triple alpha strike is very very rare, my list has probably a better triple alpha strike in the 2 void spinners and wraithship but I've never used it. Most lists won't have 3 artillery formations that you are desperate to remove as an initial activation and the burning of 3 activations and the rolls necessary aren't worth it otherwise.

Batrep from last night Mic Fairs elder vs Red Corsairs to follow

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:46 am 
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Agree on the triple alpha strike - I can see it being a nightmare for steel legion (but then so are 2 void spinners at all times) - Tim used it on me when we played which was annoying for demeching some of my units (though that was partly my fault for not putting infantry in front of rhinos to take the scorpion hits) but I don't think actually broke any of my squat list units (which are intended not to be small and squishy like steel legion).

Good point on Saim Hann, changing hit and run wrecks that list. RE Warlock builds - take this list for example (which I think is the last time anyone playing BT placed with a warlock at a UK tournament) consolidate changes absolutely guts it http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionship/aldetail.php?pid=105&tid=84&aid=4 (FYI the banshees listed are actually swooping hawks)

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Last edited by StevekCole on Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:07 pm 
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If anything is going to change i think the Farsight rule is the best option.

Also, if the Avatar is not worth 50 points, could it be wirth 25? Personally I'd rather see Void Spinners go up a bit in price than putting a price on the Avatar.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:42 pm 
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^this^
Also for testing purposes less changes at once is superior. Knock on effects will be larger than average therefore smaller incremental changes are better here.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:46 pm 
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How about rangers staying at current cost but losing their armour save


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:10 pm 
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Putting any price on the Avatar would simply result in it not being taken. As it is, the formation rarely does anything because the Guardians / Farseers are not usually in position to deliver the Avatar to a usefull position.

Changing the Farsight rule may be worth trying, though if each retain attracts a -1 to activate I would also change the wording of the Farseer to say that he ignores the penalty for retaining (as opposed to conferring a +1).

That said, placing BMs on support formations means that they are already on a 4+ to retain, and this would push such a formation to 5+, while even Aspects or titans with a BM would go to 4+ which seems unreasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:33 pm 
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Wheres all the aussies?

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:38 am 
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Norto wrote:
Wheres all the aussies?

You mean apart from Pte , mard , Mic , Jim, robo and anyone else I have missed?


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:22 am 
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Norto wrote:
Wheres all the aussies?

Australia, generally.

:spin

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:48 am 
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Just to put a few minds at rest. Nobody has been playing with 10cm consolidating transports, bikes etc have they?

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Last edited by Kyrt on Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:49 am 
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Also to add my voice to the choir, changing consolidate is a non starter for me, it takes all eldar lists back to square 1 for development. Which could well kill NetEA, not to be overdramatic.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:37 am 
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Sorry, to clear the consolidating BS up first....The talk was to change the up to a full move after a engagement to either 10 cm or 20 cm depending on their speed and not as currently as written....for example Infantry with speed 15cm would move 10cm and Falcon that moved 35cm would move 20cm.....not just 10cms for all...

Want has annoyed me more is there been no" sorry can you please explain"...no most have,just assumed it was 10 cm's

and to give an answer to the other part yes I have played games were they have only consolidated 5cms, for the whole game, to see if it would work... just as much as I have play games were I have use LOS.. Not use far-sight or hit and run..At least I have played games were I have used it that way and not theory-hammer or disregard it as a pile of mumbo jumbo...

I guess I willing to put things through it paces, to see and learn..Why I did the LOS games... :-)

I keep telling the Aussie, batreps please to prove there is a issue and here I'm getting the same thing with statement like "it will wreck this list", but no Batreps....

I could go on, but I think at this point this is enough from me...

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