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2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:54 pm 
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:

I didn't get many outright kills in assaults, most of it was done on resolution. That said, my shooting rolls, even when token, were probably above average in accuracy (blind scorpions excluded :D ).

Interestingly there were two assaults where eldar rolled 1-1 for resolution and a third with a 1-2 roll … all three still won by eldar (this isn't a balance point, just very a very unlucky set of assault res rolls which amazingly fell in situations where it didn't matter)



I think Apoc may have hit on the fundamental aspect of what the opponents are feeling when facing this particular build. As it relies on placing disrupt blast markers and high static combat res, then the Eldar army isn't really relying on the dice - they can flub their rolls and still get the desired outcome. This gives an almost guaranteed outcome that no other army build relies on.

It also leads to the frustration of the opposing player - there aren't many formations or combos of formations that can shrug off Void Spinner hit or a pre-prepped ex-ex-shining spear clipping engagement.

You feel like you're playing against the 'special rules' and not the opponent.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:25 pm 
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Thanks guys, keep 'em coming.
:)

Please don't get me wrong, I think the wider community needs to understand the specific issues as felt by the Aussies;
(I know I certainly do).

Once we have more definitive explanations of what is happening, it becomes easier to establish 'success criteria' and formulate appropriate fixes.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:32 pm 
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+ 1 to what was said in the blog


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:02 am 
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+1 to steves blog.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:27 am 
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I vote the "+1" as well

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:28 am 
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Yep agreed to some degree with the points the blog raises. They don't all need changing and if they screw other eldar lists over then they can't happen. But i think 2 or 3 of them could bring BT back to earth. At the moment, they are OP in the hands of someone who can wring the most out of them.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:57 pm 
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I do have a question
What would a 3000 point anti Eldar list be
I've tried a few things and couldn't find something that worked so I caved and hoping the dark aside so to speak (iyanden)

I have seen air assaults meantion and space ships but saying that and using them in an effective list are two very different things

I am happy to try what is thrown out there if possible (my collection depending)

Interested to see what people can come up with


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:33 pm 
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I'd go with, and this is good vs all comers not just eldar.

2 scout formations - these deploy forward enough to hinder eldar movement but must be strung out behind terrain so scorpions/falcons cannot hit them after a single move. Their primary job is as stalling formations and to restrict movement. If you add Razorbacks they can prep assaults and hunt broken formations in later turns.

Strike Cruiser and Devastators in drop pods - the barrage and the pods with their death wind ideally go in different positions. A lot of their placement is learning to know your opponents tendencies but placing the barrage just to one edge of cover often works. Then if there is something behind the cover the 2nd template can go there. Pods go somewhere else and move them firstly to target AA secondly to BM as much as possible (remember LoS is not needed for the death wind).
Then retain and sustain with the Devastators, again target no1 is AA followed by breakable formations - in this case particularly scorpions and rangers. Void spinners aren't as much of a threat for SM.

Thunderbolts - 1 or 2 formations. In this case they can harass smaller formations and most importantly kill broken formations.

Tactical or Devastator formation - can have SC, Hunter and Razorbacks. Try and make it the BTS. Again deploy it behind cover and spread out as much as is feasible. Ideally nothing should be able to shoot it or the 2 scour formations except of they double or are void spinners. The target of this formation is not to get broken. If the void spinners target it they are unlikely to break it and then marshal it. Later turns it can move up screened from assaults by its scouts or fall back again to objectives.

Landing craft with predator Annihilators and hunter. These need to arrive late on, hopefully the activation count will have been at least evened out by the strike cruiser, pods and devs. If they are still unbroken the target for these is the AA. Land 46cm from the Firestorms and you are out of their AA range. The predators then can jump out 5cm and are now within the predators range. If the AA is gone then the SHTS are the target. LC CSM later turns be used to assault small or broken formations.

Thunderhawk with Terminators and Chaplain. - this should be one of your last activations. Hopefully the AA will have gone by then, if not try and avoid it or go for a formation with BMs to negate yours. The priority for this assault is to not lose terminators and to destroy the enemy formation so go for an easy target. Against this eldar list anything except the Shining Spears.

Thunderhawk- this should be your last activation and comes on to pick up the terminators to assault with them again turn 2. When you land also try and shoot something to lay more BMs as BMs ruin the eldar.

The basis of that will leave around 200 pts to add the 2nd t bolts or characters, Razorbacks or hunters.
Ideally turn 1 the spaceship, pods death wind, devs, LC and press and then terminator assault will have removed the AA and given the SM activation advantage while getting into the eldar back field. Then turn 2 you have aerial dominance to increase the activation advantage and then pick on the spears with multiple supporting formations

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:51 pm 
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I'd agree with Steve54 on this build. Checkout the E-UK championship site for Codex Marine lists, there are a lot of variations on this theme.

========================

And back on topic, while Steve / Beefcake's list of 10 'advantages' is partially usefull, it does not really describe how they are used. I was hoping for more comments like those of Elsaurio above
Elsaurio wrote:
Apocolocyntosis wrote:

I didn't get many outright kills in assaults, most of it was done on resolution. That said, my shooting rolls, even when token, were probably above average in accuracy (blind scorpions excluded :D ).

Interestingly there were two assaults where eldar rolled 1-1 for resolution and a third with a 1-2 roll … all three still won by eldar (this isn't a balance point, just very a very unlucky set of assault res rolls which amazingly fell in situations where it didn't matter)

I think Apoc may have hit on the fundamental aspect of what the opponents are feeling when facing this particular build. As it relies on placing disrupt blast markers and high static combat res, then the Eldar army isn't really relying on the dice - they can flub their rolls and still get the desired outcome. This gives an almost guaranteed outcome that no other army build relies on.

It also leads to the frustration of the opposing player - there aren't many formations or combos of formations that can shrug off Void Spinner hit or a pre-prepped ex-ex-shining spear clipping engagement.
(My emphasis)

This eloquently describes a 'problem', that we can then use to consider potential fixes to the list; eg
  • Reducing the number of Inspiring characters to 0-1 per Aspect formation
  • Reducing the number of VS formations permitted in the 3K lists
  • Removing disrupt from VS
  • Making VS 'slow firing'
  • etc
All of which reduce the potential for an Eldar player to rely on a near certain outcome in a 'clipping' assault under these conditions.

Obviously, the opponent can also avoid the 'clipping' assault in the first place through
- carefull placement of all units to prevent a few being 'clipped'
- keeping other formations in support range of key formations
- placing BMs on the VS and especially on the Shining Spears
- having key defensive formations on OW to place at least one BM on the Shining Spears as they assault
- etc
And it may be that the community think these strategic and tactical tips sufficient - or insufficient - to fix the stated 'problem'.

The point is that we really need solid examples of how the BT list can and is being 'abused'. Merely saying that they have the best Assaulters / Scouts / Free units etc (all of which can be disputed) does not really help us pin down the exact things to fix, without which we will end up in a series of endless, unsatisfactory, subjective discussions that won't resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction.

Personally, I really want to avoid a repetition of the years of rancorous and heated debates that accompanied the original Eldar discussions for 2-3 years before the original changes were made to the list in 2008. Not least, because the Aussies need to be helped, either with appropriate fixes, with more appropriate hints and tips or some mixture of the two.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:50 pm 
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I read through Steve's article last night along with Apoc's game. At the time I has some thoughts but I seem to have completely lost them by today. :( Reading back over Steve's article though it did occur to me that the core to support ratio is a bit of a red herring. Most, if not all, of the lists I've seen for Eldar take 2x guardians and 2x aspects. Since both are "core" choices you'd still open up 8 slots if the ratio was 2:1 which doesn't really seem like it's going to do much to affect lists. I guess you could drop to 1:1 but that seems overly limiting.

I agree about artillery being a problem and I think this may be the key issue with the list. Eldar arty is cheaper, faster, and more effective than practically anything else out there. On top of that it has great synergy with Eldar assaults due to disrupt especially with the combined inspiring.

I feel that eldar could be toned down quite a bit if some changes were made to the artillery options (significant price increase or loss of disrupt) and aspects lost the ability to take two leader upgrades. Doing that would make assaults considerably less sure.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:05 pm 
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I agree. A points increase to arty or stay the same and lose disrupt is a solid option. Additionally just increasing the cost of the Exarch to 50, to bring it inline with other inspiring characters, and the increase of the autarch to 100 points to bring it in line with other SC would haveminimal impact but help to balance.
If not I'm dropping the cost for dark eldar characters to align with eldar.
Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:06 pm 
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Maybe at the same time test exarch with ea+1 mw cc or ff ( chosen at the start of game).
Cheers
Jim


Last edited by JimXII on Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:15 am 
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Scout – 150
Scout – 150
Strike cruiser – 200
Devastator - drop pods – 250
Tactical – SC 2 x razor backs – 425
Landing Craft – 350
Predator Annihilator – hunter – 325
Thunderhawk – 200
Thunderhawk – 200
Terminator - Chaplain – 400
Thunderbolt Squadron 175
Thunderbolt Squadron 175

this is what i came up with Steve

thoughts


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:22 am 
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Interesting list. But in our context i do not see it being that successful against all comers or mics eldar. It has high BM pavement potential but weakon aslts especially against skimmers. Limited MW to deal with RA.

I've had some success with this list but still don't know how it would fair against mics eldar:
Codex Astartes TP2016 / Codex Astartes TP2016           3000

    Tactical Detachment                                  425
        6xTactical                                          
        Supreme Commander                                   
        Tactical Dreadnought                                

    Assault Detachment                                   225
        4xAssault                                           
        Chaplain                                            

    Assault Detachment                                   225
        4xAssault                                           
        Chaplain                                            

    Devastator Detachment                                250
        4xDevastator                                        

    Land Speeder Detachment                              200
        5xLand Speeder                                      

    Land Speeder Detachment                              200
        5xLand Speeder                                      

    Thunderhawk                                          200
        Thunderhawk Gunship                                 

    Thunderhawk                                          200
        Thunderhawk Gunship                                 

    Thunderhawk                                          200
        Thunderhawk Gunship                                 

    Strike Cruiser                                       200
        Strike Cruiser                                      

    Warhound Titan Pack                                  500
        2xWarhound Titan                                    

    Thunderbolt Squadron                                 175
        2xThunderbolt Fighter-Bomber                        
The idea is to group the aslts in the same thawk if you wanna target one unit in CC or do an aslt devs combo especially if there is a unit you need to firefight.
Additionally you can deploy one of the aslts to open up a thawk uber service.
Still i wouldn't take it to an Australian tournament due to its limited capacity to take it titans or leman russ coys.

Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:18 am 
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Increasing the points or remove disrupted doesn’t help the assault issue still, due to plus 2 for BM’s….with THE ELDAR artillery? So I’m still not convince it will fix the issue….Now range is another matter, forcing the Eldar artillery to be more mobile and making sure they can’t hit from their deployment zone would help lower SR armies….and also allow them the ability to hit back to some degree..

So how about if the void spinner and Night spinner fire indirect, but don't double their range as such …. They could move and shoot any target in range and apply the modifiers if they double move or sustain fire …So like how the CLP gives indirect to BP weapons in the ATML list …. It could be add to the note section in the stats (Means removing ID off the weapon)…. It may mean range change on the weapons maybe…so the void spinner could go to 75 cm say….. So if the deployed on the 15cm, the void spinner would need to move 25 and shoot anything in 75cm and no modifiers or double with -1…..or sustain fire any targets in 75cm with +1 from the deployment zone…although keeping it 60 would mean more double moves…..

Yeah, nice and simple on aspect just limit one to aspect War-host; I adjust the autarch to 75 points…

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