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2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues

 Post subject: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Further to the discussions regarding Eldar being an overpowered list I am setting this tread up allow comments to continue without swamping other topics.

So first up I have below a very quick video of last night's game against Consul Avenging Angel. It was a blind game for him and the resultant game was 3k Biel-Tan vs Steel Legion.

BT list used:
Avatar
Shining Spears + Autarch & Exarch
Shining Spears + 2x Exarch
Guardians
Guardians
Rangers (5)
Rangers (4)
Night Spinners
Void Spinner
Void Spinner
Scorpion
Scorpion
Falcons (3) & Firestorms (2)
Falcons (3) & Firestorms (2)

Points from the game, I made a mistake with the Biel-Tan set up that meant my Void Spinners were not in place for complete turn 1 counter-battery fire. I only had one in range and had a choice between Deathstrikes and Manticores.

Turn 1 Steel Legion lost the Deathstrikes, Manticores fired on Void Spinner, catching Night Spinners and Guardians & only killed a Guardian and Heavy Weapon Platform. Further to this both the Reg HQ & Mech Companies both failed to activate leaving the BTS tank company out on its own.

This meant that I was more aggressive with the second Guardians, Rangers and both formations of Falcons.

Turn 2 Tank Company was engaged and reduce to the fearless Commissar Tank. Follow up shot from Void Spinner failed to kill the tank, but with it hiding near two formations the fire also caught some Hydras and the Reg HQ. The tank survived but two Hydras from the formation and Reg HQ Hydra, Chimera and two guard stands where destroyed breaking one and placing loads of BMs on the HQ.

Turn 3 it was pretty much a mopping up operation with Eldar units being placed to slow any advance of the Guard and the game was won 3-0. Could have been 5-0 but the lone commissar tank saved 3 hits and I broke the Mech company when I didn't need to allowing it to break into the Eldar half which then rallied.

Main thoughts - If I had the same dice vs CAA's dice in any game I would expect to win. One of the Void Spinners was superb whilst the other one only failed to fire in all three turns.

VIDEO

Anyway have at it lads.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:04 pm 
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your video isn't available.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Published now - I just had it as a draft.

Other note there is no commentary it is a quick view of 3 turns.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:09 am 
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Thanks for the report Tim...

So how did CAA feel about the List ?...

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:50 am 
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Quick details on the three games I played with the Biel-Tan list at Counterattack.
First game was against Feral Orks with 4 Orkeosaurus, Steam Gargants, Boarboyz and a couple of Wildboyz formations with catapults. We set up playing corners with the Ork TnH objectives close together and the Eldar spread out to the far corners.
First turn the Orks came forward whilst I used the artillery to hit the Boarboyz. Scorpions and Falcons concentrated on the lead Orkeosaurus whilst on one flank a Rangers and Guardian formation advanced into cover.
Second turn the artillery continued to hit the Boarboyz wiping out two broken formations with blast Markers. The Orkeosaurus continued to push forward whilst the Scorpions and Falcons continued to fire on the lead Orkeosaurus killing it off leaving just a Wildboy to run off.
Third turn the Orks continued to push forward and were contesting the Eldar TnH whilst the Eldar had secured the Ork TnH. I saw a chance to win the game by breaking the Orkeosaurus on the TnH, but in discovering this I was a bit vocal which allowed my opponent to push a second formation up to contest as well. I should have double the second Ranger formation past the Orkeosaurus which although then being sacrificed would have prevented the move forward. So instead I set up a rolling engagement with Guardians supporting Falcons who would then move to support the Shining Spears engaging the Orkeosaurus. Falcons failed to activate and stalled the sweeping engagements.
Game went into a fourth turn, but the Orks could claim enough and I couldn’t shift the orks off objectives. Ork Blitz and Steam Gargants were left alone in the far corner for the whole of the game.

If I had been a bit clever I could have won this game in 3, 2-0 but made my mistake and then failed to activate the Falcons which was a pain.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:56 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Game 2 – Squats. Well I suppose this doesn’t count as both lists are seen as overpowered. However this was a tournament and I didn’t get to pick my opponents.

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We set up straight across the table with me trying to hide formations from any direct fire weapons. One Void Spinner shot and the other failed to activate. Scorpion popped a couple of Rhinos. Cyclops managed to double and get a line of sight on the second Scorpions which was immediately dispatched. Overlord advanced to try and take out the falcons on one flank and only placed a blast marker. Falcons retaliated by advancing and taking two damage off the Overlord breaking it. Squats pushed up their right flank keeping away from the majority of the Biel-Tan artillery whilst I advanced my right flank to take advantage of this. Seeing a chance to take out the Cyclops that was sitting on its own I pushed forward with both formations of Shining Spears to look at finishing off the Overlord and then ganging up on the Cyclops. The Overlord failed to rally and ran away…..
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Turn 2 the Cyclops was engaged by the Shining Spears and reduced to 1 wound and broken. The Squats continued to push up their flank but were hampered by the Eldar artillery. As there was nothing else worth shooting at for one of the Void Spinners it placed a blast marker on the broken Overlord, this activated once, placed a BM, was broken, failed to rally and lost to this final shot.
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Turn 3 saw the Cyclops finished off after it had shot the Avatar and caused a critical hit. I then realised that it was not the BTS and I should have been targeting the Colossus. The Squats started to strip activations off me with their main flank engaging the Rangers, Guardians and Falcons. Whilst I claimed my TnH objectives. End of the turn saw me line up an attempt at the Colossus with a formation of Falcons and Shining Spears.
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Turn 4 the Falcons failed to activate and the rolling engagement failed to happen again. Shining Spears were broken by the Colossus and the game finished up with contesting objectives and trying to make sure points were claimed.
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A second draw of the day but came out on top with points.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Game 3 vs Vanaheim
So third game of the day and I finally come up against some aircraft, although no air assaults to worry about. With the speed of this list there was no point in setting in corners and we faced off across a hill and ruin strewed battlefield. The Vanaheim garrisoned forward a Sentinel formation and the Storm Troopers with one formation of Vultures popped up on Overwatch on their Blitz. If I was playing the Vanaheim and had garrisoned the Storm Troopers up I would have continued to be aggressive with the other Sentinels and both Vultures on Overwatch to really threaten the Eldar. Thankfully I didn’t face this.
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Turn 1 - Night Spinners caught one Overwatching Vulture in range and destroyed it reducing the potential for this formation this turn. Void Spinner shot the Storm Troopers destroying a Valkyrie and slowing them up. Tried to retain with a Scorpion but failed and this shot the Storm Troopers for more blast markers. The other Vultures advanced forward to get a line of sight on the second Void Spinner and took two wounds off it breaking it. Second Scorpion doubled to exact revenge on the Vultures. The aircraft came flying to attack my exposed Night Spinners and Rangers that were outside the initial Eldar flak bubble. This resulted in the Spinners being destroyed and the Rangers taking blast markers. I doubled my Falcons and Firestorms over to aircraft ready for some end of turn shooting. This triggered the Blitz Vultures overwatch (2 rockets from 1 unsupressed) which destroyed a Falcon. Shining Spear engaged the Storm Troopers catching them in a clipping engagement and leaving just 1 stand remaining before jumping back. Second Shining Spears swept across the board to get ready to go for the Blitz, when the Vanaheim refused their flank and concentrated on their right flank. 2 Lightnings and a Thunderbolt were shot down flying off. Void Spinner remained broken.
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Turn 2 – Avatar arrived and I lost the roll off. The Shining Spears were broken and also the Falcons, but the Ranger line held, as were not targeted. The vultures on my right flank were finished off by a Scorpion. I was able to push forward my centre and right flank towards the objectives. The aircraft went after my BTS Shining Spears, but I was lucky that before I could move my flak over to protect them I caught a Thunderbolt with one Firestorm and took it down. This saved my Autarch. Pushing forward with my Rangers left a break in my scout line that the Vanaheim supreme commander took advantage of and pushed forward through with his remaining main activation – Himself.

Turn 3 – Where previously the luck had not been with me it swung back into my favour winning the Strategy and having the Vanaheim BTS within easy reach. This I pounced upon and after shooting at and engaging there was the Commissar running away, probably after shooting the supreme commander himself. A Scorpion shot later and BTS was mine. The game concluded with the Imperial aircraft failing to activate meaning that Imperials could not break forward to contest objectives and the game finished 2-0 (BTS & DtF) to the Eldar.
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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Ok, so three games in the UK meta although no really examples of lists that have been suggested are strong at countering the high activation, artillery and sneaky assaulting Eldar. The list remained unbeaten and if I had had my brain screwed on plus those b***** Falcons activating I could have had three victories. I actually felt that I was on the ropes in the third game, where some slightly different choices (Vultures should have come straight after the Falcons/Firestorms) and suicidal Vanaheim BTS charge withstanding could have meant that I lost the game.

My biggest issue with this list is that it plays differently to my style. Here you have to be calm and calculated where as I am a more direct, in your face type of player and my lists reflect this.

My opponents did not seem overly concerned to play the list or what I was trying to do. In the UK I would more say that Necrons have the biggest, “They do what?” reaction followed by Tyranids, Dark Eldar and possibly AMTL (“How many shots?”).

Now to dust off a different list as Steve is getting far too far ahead in the Championship. Comments more than welcome.

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 Post subject: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:33 pm 
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I was the Squat player.

It was a really interesting game that. In pure match up terms this should've been a good one for the Eldar - plenty of infantry to de-mech and get disrupted, 2 redundant aa units, no air assaults, and some big war engines to be assaulted by shining spears. So he could slow me up, wear me down and counter punch. The only advantage I had was the colossus indirect fire was unlikely to be suppressed by void spinners meaning could definitely get to work on those fragile eldar units.

First things first, Tim's a better player than me so anything other than a loss is above par for me. So I was slightly surprised that when I looked at the two armies my main thought was I'll need to do something a bit silly to lose here but it's going to be a struggle to win. I very nearly went for the former with one comically huge error (plus a couple of minor errors - not putting infantry in front of rhinos to take the macros & not just sitting the overlord on overwatch after I'd sniped a scorpion) but Tim had some pretty poor dice (compounded by me going for and killing the autarch - which is always in my anti-eldar game plan) which just about balanced out my idiocy.

I felt the list just didn't have the threat range and assault power of the double vampire eldar list. I've played Mark's similar squat list to the one I fielded here with my usual eldar list and wiped the floor with it as you get more options about where to assault and better redeployment moves by recycling aspects into the vampires. Once the shining spears had set off in pursuit of the cyclops I knew I could overwhelm the other flank. I guess Tim could have held back with them but then I could've pushed the cyclops plus another Bezerker co up the other flank to put pressure on his blitz and deny him T&H.

It was a really tight and tense game which I thoroughly enjoyed but it didn't leave my shouting nerf eldar. Of course, as Tim notes its not necessarily an army that suits his natural play style - set against that is the fact that he's being very humble as on paper he would be the nailed on favourite for this tournament as he was the only person to have won the UK championship attending and has more tournament wins than everyone else there combined.

Top line though - it was really great to face that list rather than just theory hammering about it. Hat's off to Tim for bringing it along.

Ps - I would have been very interested to see it face off against Dan's 6 thunderbrick list!

PPS - I wouldn't worry about me in the championship! Plenty of time to get reeled in. However, Mark (unlike me) hasn't burned all his best armies yet and is only a couple of points behind!

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:54 am 
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Thanks for the reports Tim and taking the list out...

Love the Orkeosaurus...so did the person have permission too use those from the his children.... ;D

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:39 am 
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Thanks for acknowledging our problem over here and taking the list and at least trying to see how we see it. 100% hats off. If only we werent such a large country and we had tournaments more often. (starts planning to move to the cold UK)

I would love to see Mic put up his 5 games at cancon where he tears apart 5 armies though.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:44 am 
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Tim, good point about the vanaheim. John and I were chatting afterwards about how that's the worst on paper match up you faced. Great options for destroying the falcons and then free reign for the aircraft. Plus the ability to into really aggressive positions early and negate your ranged fire.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Interesting lack of OW fire from the Vanaheim, which would have really crippled the Eldar in that respect . . .


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:40 am 
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Hi ALL,

Well I thought I would do responds with want we spoke about in the Sub-Ac.

So at the end of the day, we should look at all option and that includes the ones that may give you heart burn and heart fail for others (I have even looked at just bring over the UK list...:-) )…. So is that not what, we are here for, to look, to theory hammer and test. …

Also these are ideas and thoughts… The overview is brief and it covers want was spoken about roughly and yes I may have missed one or two, but I’m sure One of my Sub-Ac will correct me if I have…

Also keep it civil…when replying back….. ;D ;D

Hit and run
The proposal was that the elder are allowed to double the normal consolidate move after a winning engagement. This is instead a full normal move. As such all elder units would consolidate either 10cm or 20cm. Depending on speed..

Avatar
It’s always fun dealing with this guy…but the following were talked about
1) Broken farseer not summon the avatar
2) Avatar (50 pts and will keep the profile as is)
3) Make it a formation in its own right.…..

Ratio 1:2
Well the heading is all you need, but the idea that aspect unlocks more support has flavour too…

Cobra
1) Giving it TK in FF
2) Increasing the range

War Walker
1) RA 5+
2) Take the formation back to 6 x 200pts

Firestorms
Yes another one that’s fun to deal with…
1) Replace up to two Falcons with 2 Firestorms, first been free and the second one been 25 points…
2) Make a SOV Warhost of 5 exchange one Falcon for a Firestorm for free. If a second one is desired the formation has to be upgraded to 6 units (but for normal falcon cost of 50pts)...

Exarch
Brought in line with wants in the Ulthwé and Yme-Loc Craftworld list that are been tested…so basically in line with UK stats..

Rangers
1) 6 units for 150 points. Add up to two for +25 points each..
2) 5 units for 125 points. Add up to three for +25 points each..

Void spinner
1) Points increase to 300 each…..
2) consider limiting them to 0-1 per 3000 points(Keep points same)
3) formations of two for 500pts(no single option)

Guardian Warhost
Move it to the Troupe section and keep support at 3. The main concern for me is that the best aspect will just be taken. So it would mean the aspect stats may need to be looked at, for it to work.

Fire Prism
Bring it back in line with UK stats and structure and points….

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