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Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2

 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:15 am 
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TK D6 sounds over the top but I don't have the list in front of me

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:20 am 
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By the way I think it's a sensible first new list, quite interested in them now.

What was the thinking about the warlock and bonesinger? Personally I still think the warlock is worth taking and farsight is still very useful (I would mostly use it for the modifier not the triple retain in this list), though it's true without the avatar in the list at all it is reduced somewhat.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:18 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
By the way I think it's a sensible first new list, quite interested in them now.


That's great to hear. They need plenty of interest.

Quote:
What was the thinking about the warlock and bonesinger? Personally I still think the warlock is worth taking and farsight is still very useful (I would mostly use it for the modifier not the triple retain in this list), though it's true without the avatar in the list at all it is reduced somewhat.


My idea was to see how it affects list creation. In most of my games I kept taking the Warlock as my SC which made it my BTS. Putting it on a Phantom would often mean I had 2 BTS which is never a great plan and especially bad in this list since an Eldar Titan isn't terribly hard to annihilate.

There's fluff reasons as well but the main thrust is to get feedback on it. If people miss it we can consider it for 4.2.3.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:00 pm 
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Played 2 games with this list last night.

List 1
Phantom – D-cannon, fist, Bonesinger
Phantom – 2 x fist
2 x war walkers
Wraith Knights
Revenant
Nightwings

List 2
Warlock
Phantom – 2 x fist, bonesinger
3 x revenant (1 with sonic lances)
Nightwings

My opponent Mark took
Lost And The Damned - Redux (0.3 - Experimental)
==================================================

COVEN [360]
Daemonic Pact, (Chaos Undivided), 11 Cultists, Daemon Prince (Arch Heretic), 6 Land Transporter, Technical
COVEN [285]
Daemonic Pact, (Chaos Undivided), Demagogue, 11 Cultists, 6 Land Transporter
COVEN [250]
Daemonic Pact, (Chaos Undivided), Demagogue, 11 Cultists, Technical
COVEN [250]
Daemonic Pact, (Chaos Undivided), Demagogue, 11 Cultists, Technical

SLAANESH SCOUT TITANS [225]
Subjugator
SLAANESH SCOUT TITANS [225]
Subjugator
SLAANESH SCOUT TITANS [225]
Subjugator
SLAANESH SCOUT TITANS [225]
Subjugator
SLAANESH DAEMON KNIGHTS [275]
4 Daemon Knights
SLAANESH DAEMON KNIGHTS [275]
4 Daemon Knights
SLAANESH DAEMON KNIGHTS [275]
4 Daemon Knights
DAEMON POOL [125]
Greater Daemon, 5 Lesser Daemon

The first game was brutal, I got crushed. The war walkers were unable to do any sort of mid-board screening as the garrisoning retinues + daemon knights would just destroy them. Mark cleverly just doubled and marched the subjugators and daemon knights forward with his later activations (pincer movement) and concentrated on killing the chaff in turn 2 before taking down the revenant and wraith knights on turn 3. The big problem I had was only having 4 resilient on board activations. Unlike with scouts in regular elder lists I was reluctant to bait with the war walkers as I didn’t want to lose them and compound my activation disadvantage. Wraith knights were decent – I’ll have another go with them in future.

Game 2 was much better and ended in a 1-0 to me turn 4. I basically pushed the warlock and the phantom to the middle of the board before having the phantom drop back to defend the blitz (where it killed 2 subjegators and put a 3rd onto 1 wound remaining). Meanwhile the warlock went straight for his BTS and then the blitz (getting the former, contesting the latter). Having more revenants gave me a bit more firepower and better hit and run options to preserve units. They still got broken regularly through BMs but it was more competitive. Interestingly, I used triple retain twice in this game in order to preserve activations for next turn by killing or avoiding start of turn threats and didn’t regret it either time.

The nightwings were rubbish in both games but that’s not a shock – not really their match up. In both games I was focusing on taking down the daeomon knights as I felt getting crossfired by them was the biggest threat to my bigger titans plus they're they key objective grabber.

Overall. I though the list was far more balanced than its previous incarnations so hats off. It’s definitely playable now. The issues are a lack of activations (which they should have as a titan legion) perhaps compounded by (in comparison to epic UK AMTL) the ability to do A LOT of damage via shooting. They’re much more of an assault army but if your opponent is smart they just feed the big titans chaff to slow them up while whittling away at the weakness. You then lack the firepower to rebalance the activation disadvantage at long range. This meant that even when I was getting onto the blitz I wasn’t able to stop units getting back to contest it. All in all, it seemed a fun list, far better balanced but in need of a little more punch (maybe at range) to make it competitive. Will definitely try again. I actually wonder about just going or a really hardcore triple phantom + revenant(s) build in future. Definitely, preferred the all war engine, all 1+ variation. I'd like to be able to make the warlock SC - just gives a bit more build flex.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:03 pm 
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Just wondering if Spirit Stones is worth 50pts? EUK have it set at 25pts.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:07 am 
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Thanks for the games and thoughts StevekCole....much appreciated.. ;D

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Just wondering if Spirit Stones is worth 50pts? EUK have it set at 25pts.


valid question..it was set by the last sub-ac, after concern were rise about having access to leader, so cheaply, by the group he was play testing with...

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:59 am 
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Thanks Steve. How did you like the 2x fist Phantom?

E&C: the way I see it 25pts is a no brainer for Rev twins while 50pts requires you to prioritize. That's why I've kept it in there.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:46 am 
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Twin powerfist phantom was excellent. In the second game it basically took out 3 subjegators. In both games my general plan was to get both the big titans to the halfway line and then have one drop back to defend my blitz (if needed) and the other to go for blitz/bts. In that sense the powerfist phantom is great as its strong enough to take out units on its own but can also provide enough support fire to make assaults with the revenants or knights really kick home. I'd need to play a few more games with them but I reckon the all out assault titans are the key to making the list work as it allows you to destroy enemy units (which you can't do via shooting) plus use your giant consolidate move to get into decent positions. Given the inability to take SC on the warlock I'd be tempted to try 3 phantoms with that build.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:17 am 
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scarik wrote:
E&C: the way I see it 25pts is a no brainer for Rev twins while 50pts requires you to prioritize. That's why I've kept it in there.

Fair point that's definitely the (only?) place I'd put it in the list I'm building.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:45 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
Overall. I though the list was far more balanced than its previous incarnations so hats off. It’s definitely playable now. The issues are a lack of activations (which they should have as a titan legion) perhaps compounded by (in comparison to epic UK AMTL) the ability to do A LOT of damage via shooting. They’re much more of an assault army but if your opponent is smart they just feed the big titans chaff to slow them up while whittling away at the weakness. You then lack the firepower to rebalance the activation disadvantage at long range. This meant that even when I was getting onto the blitz I wasn’t able to stop units getting back to contest it. All in all, it seemed a fun list, far better balanced but in need of a little more punch (maybe at range) to make it competitive. Will definitely try again. I actually wonder about just going or a really hardcore triple phantom + revenant(s) build in future. Definitely, preferred the all war engine, all 1+ variation. I'd like to be able to make the warlock SC - just gives a bit more build flex.



Agreed the list is a lot more balanced than previously, so kudos to the Army champion for that. (Steve saw himself as the underdog in our two games which couldn't be more different to the last time we tried this list out.)

In terms of Internal balance I think at the moment all WE definitely seems the way to go. With so few activations each one needs to be contributing, and as Steve said, with a lack of long range fire each unit needs a large 'threat range' which the non-WE's currently lack.

So I think strong builds might look like:

Phantom or Warlock
Phantom
4 x Revenants(or maybe Wraithknights)

or

3 x Phantom
2 x Revenants

In terms of revisions, I think the earlier suggestion on smaller units of fighters/bombers is a good one. The DE provides a good basis for working out the points for these (I think Razorwings might even be identical to Nightwings?)

The War Walkers in our 2 games really provided nothing. I think they're weaker in this list even that Biel Tan(Where there pretty rare) as they don't have artillery to guard, there's less activations to protect them, pull the enemy elsewhere etc. I think they could do with a point reduction to maybe 175pts.

With a few units costing 350pts in this list it'd also make list building easier if players wanted to include them.

I'd say they could probably do with being cheaper in Biel Tan but that's a discussion for another time ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:27 pm 
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Thanks guys. I'm going to get in a game with a swarm of War Walkers this week.

4k
2xPhantom (1 SC)
2xRevenant Twins
5x War Walkers
+150 points of upgrades. Haven;t settled on the specifics yet.

After that I'll look into the next revision with everything said here in mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:40 pm 
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Battle report is up..

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31962

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:50 am 
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Battle report up...

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32009

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:20 pm 
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Details of CAA (Eldar) vs E&C (Orks) game - https://youtu.be/n4amitBWewY

After the Orbital barrage the orks were ready to concede. However, things soon changed.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:44 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
Details of CAA (Eldar) vs E&C (Orks) game - https://youtu.be/n4amitBWewY

After the Orbital barrage the orks were ready to concede. However, things soon changed.

It being a playest I played with the idea of conceeding so we could have a more typical (less devastating) orbital barrage on a re-run. As it happened, I needn't have worried that an unusually effective barrage would skew the game overly in the direction of the Eldar. It wound up 4 0 to the Orks on turn 3 IIRC.

This was my standard tournament all-comers Ork list, no customisation to fight a WE list was made. I had good luck at some crucial moments so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from this game.

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