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Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2

 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Thanks for your thoughts, parrot. We can't change anything 'list-wide' here so how holofields work will have to wait.

Your experience with the brightlance mirrors my own though. I'd rather change the stats on the weapon itself or even make most of them twin-linked rather than change the points costs since I am still constrained by the point cost of the pulsars. 2 lances with 12 shots is pretty murderous while going from 3+ to 2+ is much more manageable and would probably need a point decrease.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2 AAR
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:58 pm 
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parrot1696 wrote:
Make the Holofield a little weaker. Not a popular view, I am sure, but there may have to be a way to make the holofield a tiny bit less powerful. At one point, a Phantom was hit by a total of 17 las-blasters (3 sets of 6, sustained fire). The Holofield saved 15. The armor saved one, the RA saved the other.

Note that the Holofield save replaces the armour save - it only gets its RA save if it fails the Holo save. Statistical average is 1 damage for every 4.5 AT hits, or 1 damage for every 3 MW or TK hits.

Best shooting results against Eldar Titans is gained through crossfire. 4+/6+ is a lot flimsier than 3+/5+... And Fir Iolarion rarely have the activation advantage to prevent the enemy from setting up crossfires.

parrot1696 wrote:
Bring back the penalty for double weapons. If I have two Bright Lances on a Phantom, I think a 25 point penalty makes sense. Otherwise, she eats medium Imperial titans like they were sushi.

On the other hand, with two ranged weapons it gets a lot weaker in engagements, which is where the Eldar Titans really shine.

Brightlances are At only; they're great against AMTL or Minervans, but rather less good against infantry hordes. Having two seems a too-specialized build for an all-comers list.

parrot1696 wrote:
Should Holofields be more susceptible to barrage weapons? My honorable opponent made a point that this makes sense fluffwise and unsucks them a little.

Sounds reasonable to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:32 am 
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scarik wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts, parrot. We can't change anything 'list-wide' here so how holofields work will have to wait.


WHY NOT! YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT I SAY! WAAAHHH!!!

Yeah, a list-wide change is a bit weird. Makes sense. Maybe tweak some points, or something.

I would like to point out that there were a whole lot of games using this list, so hopefully we can move it to 'legal' soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:39 am 
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Played my first game using my newly (half) painted Titan Clan army last night, against CAA's Codex Marines.

I took:

Phantom with Supreme Commander. 2x CCW
Revenant Pair with Pulsars

Revenant with Pulsars
Revenant with Pulsars
Revenant with Sonic Lances
War Walkers
Nightwing Squadron


CAA's list was (IIRC):

Terminators with Supreme Commander
Terminators
Devastators
Devastators with Hunter & Razorback
Scouts
Scouts
Land Speeders
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk
Fighter Squadron
Fighter Squadron
Strike Cruiser

And I'm missing some points, maybe another Devastator formation?

Turn 1 he went first, was very cagey, no casualties (He missed with his bombardment and his Devastators landed on the other end of the board near my blitz, which I didn't set up near to) until the end of the turn when he tried his hand with Terminators in Thunderhawk. His Hunter missed my CAP, and then the Thunderhawk took 4 hits and fell out of the sky.

Turn 2, I went first, and attacked some nearby mobile Devastators with my Sonic Revenant, putting lots of BM's on them. Also moved a Revenant to attack his Land Speeders, killing 2. His Scouts engaged and broke that Revenant. His mobile Devastators Marshalled to retreat and remove BM's. I used another Revenant and then my Phantom shooting to finally break the Mobile Devastators. He used Thunderbolts to break my war walkers. I lost a Revenant to a Thunderbolt strike also.

End turn, everything rallies.

Turn 3. He teleported his Terminators, won the roll off.

Terminators engage a single Revenant, and score a grand total of 3 CC hits. One DC lost. In return the Revenant kills one Terminator, and a nearby War Walker kills another! He loses the engagement and the two surviving Terminator units (Inc the SC) retreat into the open nearby (all cover was within 15cm of Eldar). He retains to engage a different Revenant with Scouts. I'm up by 1 after kills but lose the roll off. My Revenant Pair advance to attack the broken Terminators. 6MW hits, all saved. Realising I can't win this turn now (would have been BTS and Blitz versus his holding Blitz), I straddle various objectives and break scout formations to force a 4th turn. His empty Thunderhawk (which turn 1 and 2 conducted bombing runs on my war walkers) lands to scoop up his broken Terminators. War Walkers break again.

End of turn, everything rallies except his Terminators, which remain broken on the Thunderhawk.

Turn 4, he goes first. Only major event was his Thunderhawk landing on his own Blitz to engage a Revenant. The (still broken) Terminators get out to firefight, and the Revenant dies. The rest of the turn I spend attacking minor formations, he kills my War Walkers with Thunderbolts and break a Revenant with BM's. I force another draw (He holds my blitz, nothing else), and we go to points.

Result: he's killed 1050 points, I've killed 1300 points. Winning draw on points on turn 4.


Some general list thoughts to follow.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:09 am 
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General thoughts:

When building my army list, I looked to go as cheap as possible on the core formations so as to get as much Support as is possible. That meant Phantom and a Revenant Pair. Don't think I'd consider a Warlock, especially as it can't be a SC, points pressure just too great.

For Phantom weapons, I had to go with Free weapons. The Starcannon looks okayish, but with the Phantom being both a big target (BTS) and also my only Engagement specialist, it had to be 2x CCW's. I might take it if I had a 2nd non-BTS Phantom. The Pulsar is obviously inferior to the other two Free weapoans and I'd never take it at its current stats/price. I suggest giving it an extra shot. Most of the other weapons are unattractive at 25pts IMO, just due to the pressure on points being so great. Maybe downprice to Free and rebalance (if necessary)?

The Revenant Sonic Lance seemed fine. Has to be taken as a paired fit to achieve the magic AP4+ / AT5+ stat, let alone the 2nd template. A mixed weapons fit is not at all attractive.

For the Support, Ghost Warriors and Wraithlords aren't worth taking, and the Knights were too expensive (wouldn't be able to get any aircraft), so Revenants & War Walkers it was. Perhaps consider dropping the cost on the Knights by 25pts so they'll look more attractive compared to Revenants?

I can't see myself ever using the Wraithgate. Keeping any formations off-board (especially slow ones that have a limited threat area from a gate) when activation pressure is so high is unattractive to me. Doubly so when there's no Avatar to summon.

Overall, I know I won, but that took excellent luck with the Terminators, so I feel (based also on previous games played against it) the list is a little underpowered as-is. YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:57 pm 
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Thanks E&C.

I think I agree on all your points for the next iteration with the exception that I get a lot of mileage out of titan pulsars in large games. In 3k I can see how they lack 'unf' since you need your BTS to be as tough as possible, hence CCWs. But in 4k a pulsar-armed phantom is amazing at shattering hard enemy units while providing strong support to FF.

I'll be sending my next revision out for proof-reading this weekend and get it up here as soon as it is ready.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:01 am 
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Thanks for the game E&C and CAA, much appreciated...keep them coming.. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:39 am 
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No worries.

If I were to make some bolder suggestions, I'd say remove the Ghost Warrior and Wraithlord formations (they don't fit the theme and they're not useful in this list style too IMO), also remove the Gate, and add a second Knight config that has the Glaive & Shield weapons from 40K.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:42 pm 
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E&C, please close the door behind you once you get out of my head.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:22 am 
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scarik wrote:
E&C, please close the door behind you once you get out of my head.


I'm starting to think there's a Symbiotic relationship between you two.. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:38 am 
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Oooh close combat Eldar Knights? Yes please!


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:30 pm 
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I have updated the link in post 1 to version 4.2.3. Go tear it apart ^^


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:41 pm 
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Several weapons are missing points costs?

Should the Fusion lance be d3 at range and d6 in FF, rather than the other way around? (It's meant to be more powerful at short range...I think?)

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:53 pm 
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That's a pretty obvious mistake. Whoops!

And the fusion lance probably should be that way though I worry it makes it too good.

Edit: reuploaded.

One of the things I want to focus on this time is the value of the different weapons. I expect to see a lot of fist+lance phantoms. So please keep it in the back of your head what would make you take the others.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:01 pm 
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Compared to the CCW with its many bonuses, it looks quite average to me. Against most opponents in FF, it's just going to be a single extra attack/kill, the D6 ability is lost.

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