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Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions

 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:23 pm 
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Rug wrote:
What is the procedure for allocating hits and saves to VoP and Barges being carried by an Executioner when it's destroyed?


A transported unit takes a single hit equivalent to the weapon that destroyed its transport. In the case of a Barge or VoP it could take the hit on its shields if they are operational.

Otherwise any transported Barges or VoP would each take a single hit and assuming it wasn't a macro-weapon or TK hit that destroyed the Executioner the Barge or VoP would get a save or take a point of damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:02 am 
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Gday all.
Just a quick one. I've noticed that the VoP is an exceptional unit. It is possible to spam over 6 in a 3k uk list and 7 in a netea list. And thats with trying to make the list "balanced" with fliers and inf. I think it might be worthwhile moving the vop to th warengine section to avoid such spamming atrocities.

I dont imagine that 7 heavy barges was ever really concieved as a thematically viable list! Hah

Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:04 am 
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Oh and i can get 8 in a non balanced list.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:50 am 
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JimXII wrote:
I've noticed that the VoP is an exceptional unit. It is possible to spam over 6 in a 3k uk list and 7 in a netea list. And thats with trying to make the list "balanced" with fliers and inf. I think it might be worthwhile moving the vop to th warengine section to avoid such spamming atrocities.


I noticed the same thing recently. It looks like a bit of a sleeper unit to me; it's one that once you realise just how good it is, it becomes a question of 'How many can I fit in my list?'.


So, how good is it?

I did a quick comparison of the Dark Eldar Vessel of Pain to the Eldar Scorpion and Cobra. That should be a fair comparison as they are all Damage Capacity 3 War Engine Skimmers in armies with hit and run rules. All are from SR4 armies and are 2+ activations.

The Vessel of Pain is faster (30cm vs 25cm).

Scorpion WE 25cm 5+RA 6+ 5+
Scorpion Twin Pulsar 75cm 2× MW2+
Shuriken Cannon 30cm AP5+

Cobra WE 25cm 5+RA 6+ 5+
Cobra D-Cannon 30cm 2BP, FxF, IC, MW or 30cm MW4+, FxF, IC, TK(D3+1)
Eldar Missile Launcher 45cm AP5+/AT6+/AA6+
Shuriken Cannon 30cm AP5+

Dark Eldar Vessel of Pain WE 30cm 4+ 6+ 4
Phantom Lance 45cm 2 × MW3+ Titan Killer (1), Fixed Forward Arc
2 × Splinter Cannon 15cm AP5+ Forward Arc
Desolator 30cm 2BP Disrupt, Forward Arc
2 Shadowfields

Weapons comparison in a nutshell: The Eldar Scorpion is longer ranged, but its firepower of 2xMW is much less powerful than 2x Titan Killer and a 30cm disrupt 2BP.
The Cobra operates best at shorter ranges (30cm), and is less powerful vs all but a very specific set of targets (warengines that it can get within 30cm of; it's less than half as good vs other Reinforced Armour targets).
I could do a big comparison of the weapons damage-output, but suffice it to say the VoP with 2x TK and a disrupt barrage is not a slacker in this area.

Resilience:

SHADOWFIELDS
Each shadowfield will automatically stop one point of damage and then go down. Do not make armour saves for damage stopped by shadowfields, or allocate blast markers. Once all of a vehicle or war engine’s shadowfields have been knocked down, it may be damaged normally and you may make saving throws against any hits that are scored. Hits from close combat ignore shadowfields but units using their firefight values must first knock down any shadowfields before they can cause any damage.
While a vehicle or war engine has at least one operating shadowfield it counts as being obscured (1.8.2) and so weapons (including AA) without the ignore cover ability shooting at it receive a -1 to hit modifier.

Armour 4+ stops 50% of hits
Armour 5+ reinforced stops 55.5% of hits*

*It is frequently a surprise to players to find that 5+ Reinforced armour is only about 5% better than 4+ armour against standard hits (ie it saves an extra 1 in 20 hits). Rolling more dice for saves often gives a perception that the saves are much better rather than just slightly better.

Average amount of standard hits required to kill a Scorpion/Cobra:
6.75 (55.% of hits blocked)
Average amount of standard hits required to kill a VoP:
8 (First 2 hits taken on Shields, then 50% of hits blocked)

Vs Titan Killer TK1
Scorpion = 3 hits
VoP = 5 hits

Vs Macro
Scorpion = 4 (single 5+ save vs macro)
VoP = 5 (2 on shields, then no saves)

Factor in the Shadowfield making the VoP count as always in cover until it is down skews this even more in favour of the VoP (not just vs Shooting, but because it reduces the chance for it to be hit in FF)
Factor in the impact of Criticals (not included in the numbers above) also skews this further in favour of the VoP because its first 2 hits have no chance of a critical=destroyed result.

In Conclusion the DE VoP is slightly faster and considerably more resilient against all weapon types (standard, (surprisingly) macro, titan killer, firefights and disrupt) than similar Eldar SHTs that have the same cost. It's better in assaults (harder to hit, and the first 2 hits won't count towards combat resolution), harder to crit (first 2 hits can't cause crits), can support after marching, and is extremely heavily armed due to the 2 titan killer weapons and disrupt barrage.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:34 am 
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Hmm... Could be interesting to try out 6-7 in a list and see how it does.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:53 pm 
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Yeah I've noticed that as well. It looks to me like they are really good both of them selves and from what they bring to the list.
I will be bringing Dark Eldar to a tournament next week and the list I have in mind have 3 Vessels and also the titan (netEA list) for 2 more TK-shooting attacks/combined with assaultiness. Not perhaps a true spaming attempt, but it will be a bit of a test of the unit. I actually think bringing 6+ VoP isn't all that good. They lack fearless so should be rather weak against hoard/assault oriented armies.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:33 pm 
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Borka wrote:
Yeah I've noticed that as well. It looks to me like they are really good both of them selves and from what they bring to the list.
I will be bringing Dark Eldar to a tournament next week and the list I have in mind have 3 Vessels and also the titan (netEA list) for 2 more TK-shooting attacks/combined with assaultiness. Not perhaps a true spaming attempt, but it will be a bit of a test of the unit. I actually think bringing 6+ VoP isn't all that good. They lack fearless so should be rather weak against hoard/assault oriented armies.


There's probably a limit to how many are a good idea, and the limit is probably less than the maximum amount allowed :D
Vs hoards they do have the ability to fire a disrupt blast (along with their other guns) and then move 30cm to 60cm away afterwards, which gives them a good dual purpose for a titan killing skimmer.

Frankly I was surprised to find out how good they are compared to their Eldar equivalents. For example, remove one of their two shields and they would still be more resilient vs standard, firefight and TK attacks, and even Macro when you factor in cover save and critical rolls. Remove the blast and they'd still be vicious as a Scorpion with shorter range but 2x TK instead of macro, or make the TK attacks into 2+ macro and they'd still be a versatile choice thanks to the disrupt Blast.
These aren't suggestions, just observations that might help illustrate how good it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:40 pm 
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They're a great unit, no doubt. They're still assault bait though. 6 of them could fire all day at decent sized infantry units and get nowhere as well (see Jon's shadowsword list for an illustration of the problem they'd have).

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:05 pm 
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Agreed - around two in a list is good, but you're going to get diminishing returns after that, as they are indeed super vulnerable to an assault, and even if they don't get killed by the assault once those shields are down it's not going to last long. They also fill a pretty specific role, which leaves them in a bit of a fix if there are no suitable targets. A shadowsword for instance isn't particularly overjoyed to see them, but infantry? not so fussed.

Trying to compare to units in other lists is i think a mistake though, as you're then looking at a unit in a vacuum rather than the role it fills in the list, what the overall vulnerabilities are, and what it's synergies are with other units in it's list. Could you for instance imagine Eldar without any ground based AA like the DE? Overall a costs/benefits analysis on units within a list is reasonable perhaps, but out of list? not so much imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:50 pm 
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I'm always interested in seeing if others can break a list so would look forward to seeing some reports.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:48 am 
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Hiya all,
I agree with the comments re synergies in the list vs other lists. Not saying it should be nerfed. Just limited in number somehow. I guess it's a similar discussion to the overlord.

Also i agree that individually they are vulnerable to an aslt but put all seven of them in spt of a reaver formation and they are pretty nasty beggers. Now i know that's a pretty farfetched example, but the point im trying to make is that we should be considering the combined effectiveness of them rather than the individual merits.

But ill try some vassal out to test the VoP swarm list.

Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:28 pm 
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I took a moderate spam list to Bath Counterattack last Saturday. Lord, 3 warriors, mandrakes, fighters, bombers, 2 slavebringers and 4 VoP.

I came fifth.

I ended up using the VoP to bully small enemy chaff/activation bulking formations like small deth copters or other small formations like defilers.

They performed alright. They really don't have much damage output and I repeatedly had the problem that only my Lord could hurt stuff.

They basically always have to double, either to get range or to make sure they stay out of 30cm of an enemy formation (otherwise they're just assaulted off the board). This renders the splinter cannons usually out of range and vestigial anyway (7+ to hit as double+infantry in cover), same with the BP2 template as double+cover means it's inf/av 7+.

Same for the TK, it gets 2 shots on 4+ or 5+ in almost every instance, so it averages 1 kill. Multiple of them working together can just about kill a tough wareengine without shields. They're actually better at taking out small expensive stuff like terminators, defilers, land raiders, etc.

I certainly didn't want MORE than the 4 I took and would probably drop that to 2 or 3. Then take something else that hits harder as my list just didn't have the ability to hurt stuff.

The 6 VoP list would need the Lord and 2 warrior formations minimum for 9 activations for 2150. Has 7 BTS though. So add the extra incubi for 2225. You don't want the Lord just sitting on the board though so webway shenanigans adds another 150pts. 2375pts and the list has essentially only one way of dislodging anything tough.

In a shooting heavy meta I could see them more as an issue but in the EpicUK engagement heavy style they're really not a huge problem.

Of note is that mostly I lost mine in games to blast markers, damage after being broken and engagements. I lost one while it still had shields to enemy fire just because of blast markers and the lack of muscle/threat from the rest of the DE list meant they enemy had few other targets to just plink the odd long ranged shot at.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:55 pm 
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From the sound of it, the VOP spam is better than overlord spam in the UK meta (as you can hit and run out of assault range) but far from overpowered? Would that be your take?

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Dark Eldar Questions
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:47 pm 
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Playing against the 4 VoP list with my Orks felt very straight forward. Admittedly there was some initial good luck which swung the game my way. But once the larger units were dealt with the VoP were not a real concern.

I can though see how armies with small sized formations could suffer.

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