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Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:32 pm 
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Borka wrote:
Any news on the update Matt? Last week has come and gone... :P


There's a slight delay because the change to developmental status means it requires some photographs of new models. If you would find it helpful, I can get an updated version of the rules and stats with no-frills, fluff and photos.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:07 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Borka wrote:
Any news on the update Matt? Last week has come and gone... :P


There's a slight delay because the change to developmental status means it requires some photographs of new models. If you would find it helpful, I can get an updated version of the rules and stats with no-frills, fluff and photos.


Yeah sure that would be nice :) , you could pm it to me perhaps? Do you need help with photos?


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:51 pm 
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I'd like an update too, please.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:48 pm 
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I'll have the basics up tomorrow, with the more fancy version with unit photographs to follow.

In the meantime, here are the final changes from the last Experimental version to the first Developmental version.

[] Broadsides increased to 325pts (in line with Tau 3rd Phase list)
[] Gun Drones reduced to "add maximum 2", rather than 4.
[] Cadre Fireblade reduced to 25pts, loses "Leader" (now is just the upgrade to FF4+)
[] Crisis dropped back to FF5+ from FF4+
[] Cadre Fireblade option given to Crisis as well as Firewarriors (nett result is they can get FF4+, if the player is willing to pay the premium)
[] Moray downgraded from 1xTK(D3) to 2x Macro weapon version, with other weapon changes. Speed increased from 20cm to 25cm to match Scorpion Fish.

[] Razorshark Strike Fighter armour changed from 6+ to - (none)

[] Firewarrior upgrade changed
FROM Add Four Fire Warrior units for 100pts or Add Four Fire Warrior units and Two Devilfish for 125pts
TO Add Four Six Warrior units for 150pts or Add Six Fire Warrior units and Three Devilfish for 200pts

(Sample Mechanised Firewarrior super-formation: 6+6 Firewarriors, 6 Devilfish, Supreme Commander, Ethereal, Cadre Fireblade, Skyray = 700 points)

[] Riptide armour downgraded from 5+ reinforced to 3+ (similar resilience vs many weapons, but more vulnerable to macro weapons). Range of Heavy Burst Cannon reduced from 45cm to 30cm, HBC firepower reduced from AT4+ to AT5+. Formation changed from 2 for 250pts to 3 for 300pts.
[] Shielded Missile Drone upgrade changed from 'Add two Shielded Missile Drones 50pts' to 'Add maximum of 1 Shielded Missile Drone per XV104 Riptide 25pts each'

[] Vespid Swarms added to Support
Limited 0-2 Six Vespid Stingwing units 150pts
Option to upgrade add Three Vespid Stingwings 75pts
Type: INF Speed: 30 cm Armor: 6+ CC: 5+ FF: 4+
Weapons: Neutron Blasters (15cms) Small Arms
Wings (count as Jump Packs)


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:52 pm 
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Nice work!

I was wondering if reviewing the Gun drones stats was in the cards instead of reducing their price (à la 6.6)?

something like adding a missile pod shot (therefore range extension, therefore better suppression support to crisis), but not reducing their price to 2 for 25, and leaving them at 2/4 --> 50/75?

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:22 pm 
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I've got an armyforge file all ready to go; waiting for the final version to check against.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:10 pm 
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I have to say I like most changes, great work!

A few notes

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
[] Riptide armour downgraded from 5+ reinforced to 3+ (similar resilience vs many weapons, but more vulnerable to macro weapons). Range of Heavy Burst Cannon reduced from 45cm to 30cm, HBC firepower reduced from AT4+ to AT5+. Formation changed from 2 for 250pts to 3 for 300pts.
[] Shielded Missile Drone upgrade changed from 'Add two Shielded Missile Drones 50pts' to 'Add maximum of 1 Shielded Missile Drone per XV104 Riptide 25pts each'

All sounds like good moves, lowering the price is probably needed. I couldn't help but feel like 6 Fusion Cannon hammer heads were better value for 250pts than two riptides. Admittedly this was just a feeling from theorizing/list building as I have jet to try the list.

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
[] Razorshark Strike Fighter armour changed from 6+ to - (none)

Why the big difference in save between this fighter and the sun shark bomber. I mean they are based on the same chassis. Does the latter have some kind on shield in 40k (I have to admit I don't know their individual 40k stats)? If you lower the save then the difference will be very big. Perhaps lowering the bomber save as well or not lower this save?

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
[] Vespid Swarms added to Support
Limited 0-2 Six Vespid Stingwing units 150pts
Option to upgrade add Three Vespid Stingwings 75pts
Type: INF Speed: 30 cm Armor: 6+ CC: 5+ FF: 4+
Weapons: Neutron Blasters (15cms) Small Arms
Wings (count as Jump Packs)

A nice addition, stats seems fine. If you add these why not also add the kroot?


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:45 pm 
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Had badly read the Vespid stats.

I would switch Armour to 5+ and CC to 6+ (which better corresponds to their 40k stats), unless I missed some part of your reasoning.

With your current stats, they cannot initiate assaults, only support them. due to their little resilience.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:40 pm 
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Quote:
[] Razorshark Strike Fighter armour changed from 6+ to - (none)

Why the big difference in save between this fighter and the sun shark bomber. I mean they are based on the same chassis. Does the latter have some kind on shield in 40k (I have to admit I don't know their individual 40k stats)?


It will be +25pts for the squadron and back to armour 6+ when the development version goes up. I was struggling to find a distinct, justifiable role for the Razorshark when the Barracuda exists, but think I have the solution now. In 40K, they fill similar roles (Razorshark being new Tau Codex, Barracuda being a rare Forge world item), so the two were too similar in this Epic list to really justify having both.

Having looked into all the differences between the two when actually used in 40K since I wrote the old profile, what I have found is that the unique selling point of the Razorshark is actually the fact it has a 360' rotating rear turret, so unlike the vast majority of flyers in 40K it can fly past targets and shoot them in the rear or sides.
Image

The only way to represent that turret effect accurately in Epic is to make it 360', similar to the Ork Fighta Bomba. To do that without ruining the balance of the unit means dropping the range of the weapon, because otherwise at 30cm the Razorshark would be able to set up wide 'umbrellas' of AA fire.

Internal Balance:
Barracuda Fighter 6+ n/a n/a Ion Cannon 30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+, Fixed Forward Arc
Twin Burst Cannons 15cm AA6+
Twin Missile Pods 45cm AP5+/AT6+, Fixed Forward Arc

Razorshark Strike Fighter 6+ n/a n/a Quad Ion Turret 15cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+
Twin Burst Cannons 15cm AA6+

Comparison: The Barracuda can hit aircraft from outside of the range of many of its targets, and has 45cm AP5+/AT6+
The Razorshark has nothing over 15cm so has to get into range of most enemies, lacks the the long range missile pods (AP5+/AT6+), but is 3 for 175 instead of 2 for 150

External Balance
Fighta-Bommer 6+ n/a n/a Heavy Shootas 15cm AP5+/AA5+
Tankbusta Rokkits 30cm AT4+

Comparison: The Razorshark has a similar 360' turret, doesn't have a 30cm gun, is slightly better vs air and worse vs vehicles. It is also more expensive and can't be spammed by adding more to a unit.

The result is a scrappy little brawler of an aircraft, not capable of stand-off shooting, but happy to get right into the thick of it and mess things up.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:47 pm 
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That sound like a good move, it would differentiate them a bit from the Barracuda like you say. I will be happy to test them ones I come up with a model/conversion I like for representing them.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:51 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Had badly read the Vespid stats.
I would switch Armour to 5+ and CC to 6+ (which better corresponds to their 40k stats), unless I missed some part of your reasoning.
With your current stats, they cannot initiate assaults, only support them. due to their little resilience.


The stats I am using are an old suggestion I saw mentioned by Joe (Yme-Loc) in an old post. I agree with you that moving the armour up from 6+ to 5+ and the close combat down from 5+ to 6+ would make the unit more useful (ie one of the rare units in Tau able to launch a FF assault and maybe survive long enough to be supported), and I expect Joe would say the same.
However it's a new addition to a Tau army, so we've got to have it test it in the current form and see if we need to report back that it gets annihilated or is actually useful. I'd want to do so before suggesting a tweak.

The 40K equivalent has 4+ armour (as per Firewarriors) and weapon-skill 3 toughness 3 strength 3 (as per Guardsmen), so it wouldn't be a hard sell to make the Epic Vespid Armour 5+ and CC 6+. This is simply a question of balance and not making changes until tested.
Good suggestion, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Download links for Developmental Version 1.0 are now on the first page of this thread.
As always, feedback and comments and playtests are welcome. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:21 pm 
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The stats I proposed were really just throw away off the top of my head in response to a thread about Vespids. Feel free to test them with armour 5+ and CC6+ if that better represents their abilities.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:29 pm 
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Stat sheet updated, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Hi man thanks!

Just wanted to point out a few things. I just tried the download links. You have accidentally uploaded the army list file to both links, there's no stat pdf.

And you have reversed the numbers. The headline in the pdf for the army list says 0.1 which I guess should be 1.0. Or have you changed back to 0.1 because it's developmental now?

cheers


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