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Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:46 pm 
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I think one of the reasons the manta is not a popular choice is the way that planetfall works. It's not like drop pods where it is purely a delivery mechanism and then you use your retain to activate the cargo. If you put stuff in the manta then you have to choose between leaving one or more formations exposed before they can activate, or shooting everything together. It doesn't have coordinated fire either so that limits what you can do further, you have to retain with the manta and give it the same order (which can't be sustain fire if you want to fire the transported units with it). Since you also don't know if you will be close to the enemy , the manta is not particularly survivable and most of the things you'd put inside it are best at short range (and likely it's the manta that needs to be in markerlight range), it is an extremely expensive gamble and it's hard to think what to use it for.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:32 pm 
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yeah totally agree. I tried to make a list where i traded markelights for the manta and just slam it down from planetfall close proximty and use it as the armies marker lights thats hard to shift. but 30cm isnt great an it can be broken pretty easy in an assault unless you invest more into putting guys inside.

Would it be worth a thought to give it a 45cm markler light for trail? i could be missing something but it dosnt seam like a crazy boost. I dont actually know fluff but being the support craft size wouldnt it have amazing view from above and be able to mark more thing?

Is there any other ideas for it? Theres probably better areas to be working on before the manta but id love to see them on tables at tournaments.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:20 pm 
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I have used Mantas quite a lot. Look at Markconz website Hordes of Things for many battles reports with them.
It would be great to hear how one turns out in a tournament setting. Do tell how it goes Borka.

My experience is that if the enemy has even moderate MW/TK weaponry the Manta will tend to take fire. Some time on its path to being broken it will suffer a critical and lose the Deflector Shield increasing the rate at which it loses DC. It is a relatively "safe" transport in the sense that it will break before being destroyed and you can bail out any passengers on either of the two segments of the break moves. If you move the Manta forward more aggressively - to use the markerlights and FireFight ability - then the process is rather accelerated and it is difficult to pull the vessel out to "safety" before it is destroyed (BTS to enemy - hence my efforts with multiple Manta lists).

It greatly irritates me that the Manta does not have Coordinated Fire - it has a Command and Control Bridge combined with multiple Markerlight systems for exactly that. A small points upgrade to give it an Ethereal or a Shas'o to sit in the command bridge - for whom it was designed - allows for taking multiple Mantas without having multiple BTS.

Split the Heavy Rail Cannon in two to give it two MW3+, TK(3) shots. At the moment it is no better than a Shadowsword in one of its key roles. That would give the shooting a definite boost and would let a Manta actually take on an enemy battle titan.

A fluffy special rule that I have thought of would be to allow the player to "Retreat to Orbit". Whenever the Manta breaks (or fails its rally roll) it can (players choice) move one segment, disembarking any passengers, and then on the second move segment is removed to orbit. It does not return to the battle during the game but does count for points as though it were still broken and on the battlefield when resolving a draw.

Overall the Manta is an extreme generalist of a Titan. I think that distribution of not particularly overwhelming shooting power at a wide variety of ranges, transport, planetfall, short range AA, useful FF support, markerlight platform, is in most respects rather like the Imperial Baneblade. For three times the price and with an inability to hide (no -1 to hit with a corner in cover). The inability to hide (provide cover for) includes the inability to block line of sight to deployed troops on the ground - including those on the ground underneath the Manta when shot at by artillery!!


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:13 am 
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Thought i should do a quick like on thoughts for viorla


Different Supremacy load outs

Other suits, not just the riptides

Have consistency accross lists and units. Avoid confusion for players and opponents.

Manta price/loadout to trail in viorla and hopefully transfer to 3rd phase.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:55 am 
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Manta should probably just have coordinated fire TBH.

I like the idea of splitting the cannons.

Also upping markerlight range seema feasible although quite a major thing. Or allowing fearless units to markerlight when broken?

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:23 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
Manta should probably just have coordinated fire TBH.

I like the idea of splitting the cannons.

Also upping markerlight range seema feasible although quite a major thing. Or allowing fearless units to markerlight when broken?

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100% agree with coordinated fire and the splitting the cannons to give two shots.

The marker lights rule tweaks I'd be a little hesitant about just for the sake of rule consistency, but it warrants trying it out. Especially the fearless part.

I have some games coming up later this month I'll bring Tau to. While a lot of this seems up in the air until a Tau AC and a Vior'la sub AC are reassigned, the opinion on the manta seems to be common across metas and could use some recaps to test it.

M_folias brought a 3rd sphere list w a manta to Fall In back in November and I played against it w Death Guard. The general opinion was it was undergunned and overcosted for what you got. As an opponent playing against it, it just was a priority for me, to avoid or kill. I think working it from those two ends (fire power v cost) can help find the balance it needs with out creating too many special rules for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:39 am 
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yeah im keen to see who gets it and see progress :D

fearless and being able to still marker light will get negative feedback from opponents i think. it will be a punch in the face like breaking monoliths and they double towards you and unleash pain. except it will be allowing a rain of GMs.

Havnt tried it so i should jump to conclusions but i see it on the horizon.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:43 am 
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Meant to add that the costing of generalist unit in epic tends include a cost for all the components in the "package" but in reality not all those components can be used at the same time so you get an over-costed unit. So I'd enjoy a slight price drop too. Please remember that with a price drop you might take more than one Manta in higher points games so some differentiation in price is preferable as well.

I'd be reluctant for the Markerlight range to go up from 30 cm. With the size of the model a 45 cm Markerlight range gives a huge battlefield coverage. Giving the Manta Coordinated Fire allows the possibility of a 1+ Initiative roll sending forward a recon (Tetra or Pathfinder) formation to provide markerlight support for a Sustained Fire mission from the Manta. Encouraging the Manta to work with it's supporting forces - rather than doing it all by itself - is an important Tau interactivity issue I think.

Letting a broken unit use it's skill when it is broken seems to be opening a can of worms that could get transferred to many other units/armies/...?? Not pleasant to the opponent either - as Norto says. The Manta is still relatively difficult to break - needing 8 BMs. Perhaps you could give a Leader characteristic perhaps associated with my hope for a price differentiating upgrade. Shas'o for supreme commander (Leader and Commander), Ethereal for Inspiring and Leader (already Fearless), Shas'el for Leader. All Mantas with Coordinated Fire anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:24 am 
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Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk[/quote]100% agree with coordinated fire and the splitting the cannons to give two shots.



M_folias brought a 3rd sphere list w a manta to Fall In back in November and I played against it w Death Guard. The general opinion was it was undergunned and overcosted for what you got. As an opponent playing against it, it just was a priority for me, to avoid or kill. I think working it from those two ends (fire power v cost) can help find the balance it needs with out creating too many special rules for it.

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At Fall In, the Manta quickly proved itself next to useless. The beast was my BTS. I never lost it but, it never did earned it's 650 back. It should kick out more fire power and be faster for 650. I never take it out of the foam again.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Not worried about the Manta as it is used from time to time, more than for example, Pathfinder formations, but could go with a little tweak.

The idea about the Mantas transported is interesting but it is a pity that it cannot fit with many big suits, as given the size of the Manta (its hangar has the height of a Hammerhead) could fit more than 3-4 Riptides or 2 Stormsurges, even if they kneel down, and Supremacies wouldn't fit except if they were laying on the hangar's floor. Well, can work loading it with a mix of big suits and one formation of the units it currently can hold.

kyussinchains wrote:
On the barrage version in my test games I have used it once and it was less than stellar, it adds a new capability to the list but that is balanced by the considered removal of other options (recon spam, hammerheads zipping around, strong ground attacking planes)


But that's not my point in the slightest. I never talked about list or unit balance, neither internal or external or power and usefulness of the unit/formation. You are doing a good work in keeping the list more focused but has nothing to do with what i was talking about. I don't get from where in what i wrote you are getting that my point has something to do with any of that.

For example, even if most of the units/formations on the army were removed, the artillery Supremacy where to cost 100 points or it had a 240cm 10BP TK(1) Ind. barrage, the issue i am talking about would still be there, completely unchanged.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
But that's not my point in the slightest. I never talked about list or unit balance, neither internal or external or power and usefulness of the unit/formation. You are doing a good work in keeping the list more focused but has nothing to do with what i was talking about. I don't get from where in what i wrote you are getting that my point has something to do with any of that.


I get it, your POV is that tau should not have template weapons, full stop, no need to labour the point....

Abetillo wrote:
Yeah, that's true, Kyuss, but the problem with it is that giving artillery that can hit the deployment zone to Tau, it is a new capability so army style changing, so alien to Tau gameplay, that anyone will want at least one in any list


That can easily be read as a comment on the potency of the unit rather than how thematic it is, there are plenty of super fluffy units that *never* get taken in various lists (land raiders? Battlewagons? Baneblades?)

indirect long range fire is hardly alien to the Tau now is it? if you're not raining seeker missiles onto the other half of the table you're either doing it wrong, or seriously missing out.... ;) with combined fire and correctly strung out garrisoned recon formations it is perfectly possible to hit the enemy deployment zone with an alpha strike of "indirect" fire.... I've had it happen to me many times, it just changes the capability, it doesn't add something entirely new to the list, I think it's disingenuous to suggest that it's such a phenomenal, never-seen-before capability that nobody will ever use anything else again....

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:14 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
indirect long range fire is hardly alien to the Tau now is it? if you're not raining seeker missiles onto the other half of the table you're either doing it wrong, or seriously missing out.... ;) with combined fire and correctly strung out garrisoned recon formations it is perfectly possible to hit the enemy deployment zone with an alpha strike of "indirect" fire.... I've had it happen to me many times, it just changes the capability, it doesn't add something entirely new to the list, I think it's disingenuous to suggest that it's such a phenomenal, never-seen-before capability that nobody will ever use anything else again....


Are you suggesting that only marked fms can be targeted by Tau indirect fire?? ;D

Because that would be just wonderful (fluffy and "realistic").

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:52 am 
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Speaking as a Tau player I do think it's a bit of a shame to give them template weapons. I rather like telling my opponent Tau do not possess any. It feels like a very strong thematic characteristic of the list. Maybe I am out of touch, but barrage just feels so... messy and archaic, next to a railgun. Over the course of the thread many people have expressed similar concerns, as it breaks one of the core design principles of the original list, which is obvs a big deal.

I think if the supremacy doesn't absolutely need it (e.g. could represent the more concentrated firing mode instead) it'd be preferable to remove it, rather than giving it alpha strike barrage that also forces enemy to spread out so they can be taken apart by the rest of the army... You could even do it like Thudd guns (i.e. indirect without barrage) - give it the Guided Missiles rule with multiple AP/AT shots.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:50 am 
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Since such strong opposition is being g brought up, I feel like I should mention that the Sunshark Bomber, which is being drawn up, also carries barrage.

Additionally, there is also variety in lists as well as load outs for the Supremacy suits. It by no means requires that someone take barrage when playing Tau. I think one or two units that provide the option for barrage to the list, especially in such a mild and costed manner, gives the list unique flavor that separates from other Tau lists.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:02 am 
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Yeah I agree no barrage weapons in Tau lists. Played more than a dozen games using the Voir'la list, many including the supremacy WE in its original incarnation. For utility the formation was an auto take similar to Biel tan and the void spinner. It was incredibly powerful for both the price and because it circumvented the original intended Tau design flaw.

Fully in favour of the Manta getting a bump in firepower / a cost reduction and or some combination. Also the ability to have a command deck would be great!

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