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Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:43 pm 
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Even after some consideration, I still think the riptide a are a bit weak/overcosted for 2 main reasons:

1) I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that 2 Ripetides are more resilient to TK than a warhound; assuming a D3 TK hit (volcano cannons and Ork soopa zaapps), then there's only a 1/9 chance of it breaking a warhound (scoring 3 damage and Critting with the one hit that gets through the shields) vs a 4/9 chance of one Riptide taking 2 damage and thus breaking the remaining Riptide. In general, 5+RA and deflector is roughly equivalent to 4+ RA; slightly worse against normal AT hits, slightly better against MW and lance with the obvious 1/3 chance to negate TK hits. The Warhound's two shields offer much more utility though making it more resilient in most situations.

2) Firepower still looks really low; a 125 point riptide has roughly the same firepower as a 65 point Ulani Leman Russ Executioner and less than a 75 point Minervan Leman Russ Executioner. If you don't want to drop the slow firing from the ion accelerator ( which I understand from fluff reasons), then maybe increasing the shooting to 3+ or 2+? A maybe keeping it at 4+ but doubling the shots? Maybe boosting the secondary weapon would be another option; the data fax lists it as a twin missile pod, which would imply 4+/5+ rather than 5+/6+.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
That's a 25pt increase in return for a Tau Deflector Field. This doesn't make it as survivable as the Reinforced Thunderhawk against most hits, but suits the light-weight but High-Tech approach, and feels a lot more 'Tau'. That might be enough to tempt some players to load up an expensive formation and storm the enemy's blitz for a change.



Just something to be a little aware of, but I would always include an Orca in a list, at 150pts it's a steal just for the flexibility it brings combined with the risk reward (air dropped Fire Warriors or Crisis are really good - so I just have to bet on my skill (and a little luck) to get them where I want).

I could also point out that almost all tournament lists in the UK use an Orca, just for an example of use.

Comparing to the Thunderhawk is almost certainly a bad idea for the points you mention.

Having said that a better Orca that costs more is certainly not a problem if it is tested properly, just don't make the mistake of thinking the current version is a poor choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:43 pm 
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yme-loc wrote:
Just something to be a little aware of, but I would always include an Orca in a list, at 150pts it's a steal just for the flexibility it brings combined with the risk reward (air dropped Fire Warriors or Crisis are really good - so I just have to bet on my skill (and a little luck) to get them where I want).

I could also point out that almost all tournament lists in the UK use an Orca, just for an example of use.


Thanks for the feedback, that's a fair point. I did a search for all the forum posts where Orcas appear on Tactical Command and found they are more common in lists in the UK than I had expected. I also read quite a few reports where people mentioned if the opponent had decent Anti-Air they would abandon the drop idea and instead just deploy their FW/Crisis formation on the table, which is why I thought an increase in survivability might be beneficial, without an increase in any other charactaristic (maybe even a decrease in weapons).

I'd be interested to learn about your experience with them - Have you often lost orcas with troops on board, and what is the level of enemy AA that would make you consider not using them?

I've got a game scheduled for tomorrow night where I will try this more expensive version with the deflector field. Very fortunate to have lots of enthusiastic playtesters around here. Should be fun!


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:30 am 
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@ Mike T - Thanks for the feedback. I've been trying to start the new units perhaps a little weaker and move them up gradually rather than over-shoot and get them flamed down as broken, so

Quote:
Even after some consideration, I still think the riptide a are a bit weak/overcosted for 2 main reasons:
1) I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that 2 Ripetides are more resilient to TK than a warhound; assuming a D3 TK hit (volcano cannons and Ork soopa zaapps), then there's only a 1/9 chance of it breaking a warhound (scoring 3 damage and Critting with the one hit that gets through the shields) vs a 4/9 chance of one Riptide taking 2 damage and thus breaking the remaining Riptide. In general, 5+RA and deflector is roughly equivalent to 4+ RA; slightly worse against normal AT hits, slightly better against MW and lance with the obvious 1/3 chance to negate TK hits. The Warhound's two shields offer much more utility though making it more resilient in most situations.


I am assuming the Riptide will break easier than the Warhound, but that it is more resilient based on the assumption that most players will strip shields before firing TK weapons at a warengine, that multiple Titan Killer hits don’t 'spill over' to other units in the formation, and on the fact that a Tau Deflector Field works in close combat as well as against ranged weapons.

The Warhound is only really more resilient than 2 Riptides if the opponent fires TK at it while its shields are still up, and because the Warhound is Fearless (which is a big deal).

The latest version of this list will go up in a couple days, which has the option for a Riptide to buy two Shielded Missile Drones for 50pts. That would increase the size of the formation to 6 (counting each Riptide as 2) and might help with your concern about them being broken too easily.

Quote:
2) Firepower still looks really low; a 125 point riptide has roughly the same firepower as a 65 point Ulani Leman Russ Executioner and less than a 75 point Minervan Leman Russ Executioner. If you don't want to drop the slow firing from the ion accelerator ( which I understand from fluff reasons), then maybe increasing the shooting to 3+ or 2+? A maybe keeping it at 4+ but doubling the shots? Maybe boosting the secondary weapon would be another option; the data fax lists it as a twin missile pod, which would imply 4+/5+ rather than 5+/6+.


That's pretty much the direction I have been heading after several test games.

This is the latest version of the Riptide's shooting profile:
2x Twin Missile Pods 45cm AP4 AT5
Ion Accelerator 45cm MW3+ Slow Firing

The shooting remains below a warhound's 4x AP3 AT5 and 2x MW 2+ Slow, but Tau players are supposed to live and breathe markerlights and pre-planning.

Other change
Riptides gain Initiative 1+, which seems appropriate as they are an even more advanced form of the Crisis Battle Suits that have 1+.


The goal is to make this a really useful, versatile formation without also making it over powered. Thanks again for your feedback.
How do the latest changes sound?


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:30 am 
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[] Following some feedback from a local player, the Razorshark Strike Fighter Quad Ion Turret reduced from AA5+ to AA6+
[] Sun Shark Pulse Bomb range dropped from 30cm to 15cm (to make it harder to avoid Anti Aircraft fire)

[] New option to have the Supreme commander to a FW unit.
From a game point of view, having a second place to put the Supreme Commander means players are encouraged to create more types of Tau armies, such as fully mechanised (with the Supreme Commander in a Devilfish), a list without any Crisis Suits if they want, or are encouraged more aggressive with their Crisis Suits if they do take them.
It also means they can use the reroll if their Crisis Suits are off-table in a drop ship.

[] Fire Warrior Cadre - Lose 'Bonded Team' option (currently too many leader options), lose 'add Broadsides' option (to make the formation less static and represent the 'hot-blooded' nature of the Vior'la Firewarriors). Both entries removed from Tay Upgrades.

[] Riptide
New option to take Shielded Missile Drones.
"Shielded Missile Drone: Infantry 30cm 4+ 6+ 5+ Twin Missile Pods 45cm AP5+/AT6+ Tau Jet Packs " 2 for 50pts
This can be compared to the existing Gun Drones:
"Gun Drone unit: Infantry 20cm 5+ 6+ 5+ Twin Pulse Carbines 15cm AP4+, Disrupt Tau Jet Packs " 4 for 50pts

Rationale:
Shielded Missile Drones are an option for Riptides in 40K, and are similarly distinct from normal gun drones. While SMD only gives 2 drones for the same price as 4 Gun Drones, crucially they have the same speed as Riptides.
The firepower is less against infantry (SMD has 2x AP5 compared to the gundrones' 4x AP4+ disrupt) but the range matches the Riptide, and it has an AT6+ to match the AT role the Riptide may often be required to perform.


This version of the list has been approved for use at the "There is Only War" tournament this weekend, so will get the ultimate trial by fire!


Last edited by Matt-Shadowlord on Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:22 am 
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<- Is super stoked about this list

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:16 pm 
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Parintachin wrote:
<- Is super stoked about this list


And so you should be - it's becoming great fun to play.

I have added the first of three battle reports from last weekend's tournament, go here to see details
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=25505

Here's a sneak preview of what happens when a tetra puts a Deathstrike-armed unit into its zone of control:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Really liking it Tau really needed the Moray and Riptide.

I'm sick of being ripped apart by scout titans. Riptides will give them something to fear now.

Edit: How come no Kroot? I'd like to see some scouting sniper kroot in this list.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:05 pm 
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Lots of cool pictures online from the new Farsight supplement - see here. Since Farsight is from Viorla perhaps this list could be combined and become the Farsight list?

Reply to my message at some point too, it would be good to play and playtest while I'm in the land of Perth for a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:00 pm 
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Matt:
Regarding the Fireblade and FF4+. I think the list'd feel more distinct with straight FF4+ Fire Warriors (with correspondingly reduced ranged attack). The Fireblade'd work quite well as a character with a ranged attack and an additional Small Arms attack (or two). I think you'd get a more distinct use for Fire Warriors out of that. And they wouldn't be so much better than their stats would otherwise suggest.

I would point out that this is all baseless guessing. :)

Glyn:
The Farsight enclave is looking to be all battlesuits all the time (among other things). I think it's still distinct enough to work on its own. I'd actually been vaguely interested in trying my hand at it at some point.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:11 am 
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Got two games in with this list this sunday; great fun - even if the damn tyranids swarmed over my poor lads.

I Really like the ability to buy pathfinders as an upgrade to a fire warrior formation; it makes it much harder for the opposition to eliminate markerligths.
If this is a deliberate downside to the other tau list, well it didn't seem to unbalance the games we played.

I'm not really sure why MW hammerheads are discounted compared to the railheads; they hurt like a sledgehammer; otoh, there is a Lot of reinforced armor in the armies I tend to face.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:50 am 
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Parintachin wrote:
Got two games in with this list this sunday; great fun - even if the damn tyranids swarmed over my poor lads.

I Really like the ability to buy pathfinders as an upgrade to a fire warrior formation; it makes it much harder for the opposition to eliminate markerligths.
If this is a deliberate downside to the other tau list, well it didn't seem to unbalance the games we played.


Thanks for the feedback, and I'm glad you enjoyed the games. I know I've had a lot of fun with the army - no game has been a landslide in either direction, which is a good thing.

Just to keep you updated, the latest version will be ready for playtesting by other gaming groups soon, after which it will go through the approval process to see if it can be added to the offical mix of lists.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:39 pm 
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Are the Shielded Missile Drones supposed to be infantry or armoured ?
When you first proposed the stats they were infantry, but they are listed as armoured in the 0.8 pdf.
Seems like a good idea to me to make them armoured when they are supporting the riptide. Just checking if it were a typo ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:21 am 
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Hi Natkatten
They are now AV. I tested them as INF but as expected they added a new weakness to the unit, which really isn't the intention of the upgrade.
The change makes them a better analogue of the Riptide's Shield Drone in the 40K Tau list, which was given Toughness six (extremely high) to ensure it didn't reduce the durability of the unit.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:25 am 
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The new PDF will be available in a few days. In the meantime, here are some gratuitous pics of the Vior'la Tau in action at a recent mega-battle.

Riptides with Shield Drones prepare to engage the enemy vanguard.

Image

Firepower pours into a mighty Gargant in the centre of the table.

Image

Tau Skimmers pop up to ambush a marker lit formation

Image

And the army list is nearing completion.


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