Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=24822
Page 2 of 33

Author:  Onyx [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Introducing the Vior'la Tau (Experimental 0.2)

One other thing that occurred to me, do Tau Deflectors work in Close Combat?

Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Introducing the Vior'la Tau (Experimental 0.2)

Onyx wrote:
One other thing that occurred to me, do Tau Deflectors work in Close Combat?


Yes, they work in close combat, which is an advantage over void shields. Tau deflector shields work like an invulnerable save in all respects, except that this invulnerable save is always at 5+.

Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Introducing the Vior'la Tau (Experimental 0.2)

Thanks for the input and opinions DaR. The 'like an <x> but more/less <y>' approach is exactly the one I like to take. It saves a lot of time in balancing units if they are based points to capability ratios of exsiting approved ones.

I have a couple of games booked in tomorrow with people who would like to help test this list out. These two will feature the War Engine version of the Riptide. If Trygons, Tyrranofex and Tervigons are DC2, that is exactly where this should be.

=================================
XV104 Riptide
War Engine Damage Capacity 2 - Walker
30cm Movement, Tau Jet packs
FF 4, CC 5+
5+ Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour
Tau Deflector Field.
Missile Barrage: 2x 45cm AP5 AT6
Ion Accelerator 45cm MW4+ Slow Firing

Damage Capacity 2
Critical Hit: The experimental Nova Reactor overloads, destroying the Riptide and doing a hit to any unit within 5cm on a 6+.
Support Formation, 2 Riptides for 250 points

=================================

Compared to the ever-popular Warhound, a formation of 2 is more resilient (DC4 vs DC3), particularly against TK weapons (2 models rather than 1) and is slightly faster (same speed, has jetpack move).
The Critical result is Destruction and an explosion, rather than the Warhounds 'Stagger' move.
It is better in FF (same FF4+ but extra dice for DC4), slightly worse in CC (extra dice for DC4 but CC5+).
It has less Macroweapon firepower; 2 Riptides together have 2x 45cm MW4+ Slow Firing, while a Warhound has 2x 45cm MW2+ Slow Firing
It has less standard firepower; 2 Riptides together have 4x 45cm AP5 AT6 while a Warhound has 4x 45cm AP3 AT5.

What you are paying for in this version of the build is higher resilience and speed, and the chance to have the gap between shooting profiles made narrower by markerlights.

I'll let you know how it does -- if all goes according to plan, with photos and a battle report.

Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Introducing the Vior'la Tau (Experimental 0.2)

The current version of the list is version 0.6, and the stat sheets are available to download in the first post of the thread.

Battle report to come. The stats of Key new units used in the battle reports are below.

Cadre Fireblade
Add One Cadre Fireblade to a Firewarrior Formation 50pts
Character, Leader. Firewarriors in a formation joined by a Cadre Fireblade gain FF 4+

XV104 RiptideWar Engine
Formation of 2 for 250pts
30cm 5+ CC5+ FF4+
2x Twin Missile Pods 45cm AP5 AT6
Ion Accelerator 45cm MW4+ Slow Firing
Tau Deflector field. Reinforced Armour. Thick Rear Armour. Damage Capacity 2. Tau Jet Packs
Critical Hit: The experimental Nova Reactor overloads, destroying the Riptide and doing a hit to any unit within 5cm on a 6+.

Sun Shark Bomber
Formation of 1 For 125pts
Aircraft Bomber 4+ n/a n/a
Pulse Bomb Generator 30cm 3BP Fixed Forward Arc
2x Seeker Missiles 90cm AT6+, Guided Missiles
Twin Burst Cannons 15cm AA6+

Razorshark Strike Fighter

Aircraft Fighter
Formation of 3 for 175pts
6+ n/a n/a Quad Ion Turret 30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+
Twin Burst Cannons 15cm AA6+

Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Introducing the Vior'la Tau (Experimental 0.2)

Vior'la Tau vs Thousand Sons


In the stuggle to control this mineral-rich wasteland of a planet, Jason's CC-orientated Thousand Sons crash into an Tau army that has an alergy to engagements. The objective placement was a dense cluster meaning the left side of the table would see most of the fighting.

Image

The Break the Spirit formation is a large upgraded Firewarrior and pathfinder division, with a Cadre Fireblade upgrade to give the Firewarriors FF4. This affects the whole formation, so encourages large groups of Firewarriors - but the question is will it be enough?

Image

Hammerheads and a Moray take position in the centre, planning to destroy enemy transports and slow the advance.

Image

The thousand sons' mechanised formations prepare for a push across the field. Jason has another even more evil plan in mind to force an early engagement, as his commander is in contact with a battlecruiser in space above the field.

Image

As the predators move forward, they take a single AT hit from an overwatching Piranha Light Skimmer, losing one of their number.

Image

The Scout skimmers are hit back in return, and break. They fall back to a position I had prepared for them to block enemy troops - only to find that before their arrival, the space craft would do a massive bombardment.

Image

Scouts destroyed and Crisis wounded, the enemy drop from space en masse.

Image


Image

Even with the Cadre Fireblade and the rear units providing FF4+, there is little that can be done to hold the enemy back.

Image

Not the best of starts.

Image

The battle had only just begun, and it was obvious it was to be an uphill struggle for the Tau.

Image

Riptides (soon to be painted!) join the fray from their now isolated position near the blitz.

Image

Riptides are currently CC5+, so while resilient are not combat specialist by any means.

Image


Image

At the start of turn 2, Thousand Sons engage one of the Broadside formations in a Firefight, wiping them out.

Image

The Tau have been reduced to a shocking 4 formations on the table, while the 1Ks haven't lost a single activation yet. To make a game of it, every shot has to count.

Image

The 1Ks are taking objectives with impunity, but may be tempted to over-stretch for a quick win.

Image

Image

Image


Image

Image

Tau manage to keep the game from ending by the skin of their teeth, as the 1Ks are just short of adding a point for holding all home objectives to their point for breaking the Tau Spirit formation, and their troops on the Tau Blitz are broken at the last moment.

Image

Needing to avoid the enemy scoring 'TSNP', Broadsides double across the table - really not an ideal location for fire support units, but it's that or lose.
Note the 'Manta' is actually a Moray :D

Image

As the next turn begins, Tau actually gain initiative.

Image

A series of moves sees the tide suddenly turn against the 1Ks. Fighters scream in low and kill the remaining member of the enemy BTS, as suffucient tanks are destroyed to break the enemy holding two objectives. The remaining 2 Hammerheads double onto an objective, as their allies take the one nearest it.

Image

In a dramatic turn of events, the Tau manage to steal victory from the jaws of defeat. Despite losing a massive formation early and having only 4 units on the table since the end of turn 2, victory was secured for the Greater Good.

I think I was as surprised by the result as Jason! :D

Author:  Onyx [ Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons

Good looking report Matt.

Pssst - when you say Manta in the pics, do you mean Moray...? :)

Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons

Correct - it's a Moray rather than a Moray. Post edited.
Expect to see another battle report soon.

Author:  yme-loc [ Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons

First impressions on v 0.6 Viorla list

Looks good.

The Riptide does look a little underpowered to me - I like the fact it isn't fearless but I think that gives you space to up its fire power a little, I certainly don't think it needs slow firing on the Ion accelerator.

Sun shark bomber should have aircraft seeker missiles at 45cm range I assume, not the 90cm ones listed currently.

The six strong footslogging Pathfinder formation and the upgrade of 3 on foot looks a little abusable from an air drop perspective to me, just first impression would need to test it.

Razorshark and Barracudas look a bit simialr to me and I doubt they are both required in the same list, not that it matters particularly if they are.

The Custodian has updated stats in the newer 6.5 list.

The Cadre Fireblade looks hard to price as an upgrade, at 50pts I would probably not bother even though it's probably a reasonable price to pay for FF4+ Firewarriors. It just adds up to another formation very quickly and having learnt to play and win with FF5+ Firewarriors I would leave it at home. However at 25pts for FF4+ and leader it would instantly be broken. Not sure what the solution to that is. Also related question do the formations Firewarriors always benefit from FF4+ or is this lost when the Cadre Fireblade dies.

Finally as nice as the battle report is, it really should be in the Battle report forum ;) just post a link if you want to highlight something in a report.

Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons

yme-loc wrote:
Looks good.
The Riptide does look a little underpowered to me - I like the fact it isn't fearless but I think that gives you space to up its fire power a little, I certainly don't think it needs slow firing on the Ion accelerator.


Noted. As a formation of 2 it's currently more survivable than a warhound to TKs etc, so I dropped the firepower to ensure it isn't overpowered. I'll see if it has room for improvement, but thought it better to start a bit lower than higher.

Lack of Fearless is an intentional disadvantage btw; they are one of only two MCs in 40K that don't have the fearless rule, and I've run them off the table twice.

yme-loc wrote:
Sun shark bomber should have aircraft seeker missiles at 45cm range I assume, not the 90cm ones listed currently.


Typo to be fixed.

yme-loc wrote:
The six strong footslogging Pathfinder formation and the upgrade of 3 on foot looks a little abusable from an air drop perspective to me, just first impression would need to test it.


I have more test games lined up, what exactly would you like to see tested? A full 9 Pathfinders in an Orca drop? And is your primary concern that they are improved by not being required to take devilfish?

yme-loc wrote:
Razorshark and Barracudas look a bit simialr to me and I doubt they are both required in the same list, not that it matters particularly if they are.


They are similar in damage output, with Barracudas doing a bit more damage per point than the Razorshark squadron (again because I'd rather start a bit lower than go too high). The Razorshark is a formation of 3 though, so more survivable.
They are similar in role, so I only left both in for the sake of people who want to use their existing air models. Of the two, the Razorshark is most likely to be kept so that all new Tau Codex models are incorporated, which is one of the appeals of this army list.

yme-loc wrote:
The Custodian has updated stats in the newer 6.5 list.


Thanks

yme-loc wrote:
The Cadre Fireblade looks hard to price as an upgrade, at 50pts I would probably not bother even though it's probably a reasonable price to pay for FF4+ Firewarriors. It just adds up to another formation very quickly and having learnt to play and win with FF5+ Firewarriors I would leave it at home. However at 25pts for FF4+ and leader it would instantly be broken. Not sure what the solution to that is. Also related question do the formations Firewarriors always benefit from FF4+ or is this lost when the Cadre Fireblade dies.


Having FF4+ is one of the most frequent requests by Tau players, and one of the other main appeals of the new list. Working it in as a purchasable upgrade (similar to the new Cadre Fireblade in Tau Codex) seemed the best approach. You might be right that 50pts is too high, but whether a player finds it reasonable or not may depend on the size of their formation, which encourages large Firewarrior formations - which suits the Vior'la theme.
Setting it at 25pts would probably make it look too cheap.

As currently worded, the formation keeps 4+ even if the Fireblade is a casualty, which helps justify the cost.

Thanks for the input, Yme-loc.

Author:  natkatten [ Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Having FF4+ is one of the most frequent requests by Tau players, and one of the other main appeals of the new list
would it be an option to just give the Vi'orla fire warriors ff 4+ and then try to balance it out by reducing their ranged firepower (mayby pulse rifles goes down to AP 5+). that might also lead to better synergy with the now very affordable (but still shortranged) gun drones upgrade adding to the variant lists flavour of large fire warrior formations.

EDIT:
having reread my suggestion I realise that it might would take to long to balance and playtest. I just want to add that im also fine with the original fireblade idea.

Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons

Ironically reducing their ranged firepower as a trade for having FF4+ was the original idea. It was like that in version 0.1 of this list, but got replaced with the Fireblade upgrade after the 40K Tau Codex was released.

It's much easier to gauge the value of this if it is priced as an upgrade rather than having to change equipment, and personally I quite like the idea of a Cadre Fireblade option with a specific purpose.

Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons

To be added in Version 0.7
Added the word permanently to the Fireblade Cadre (for clarity): "Character, Leader. Firewarriors in a formation joined by a Cadre Fireblade gain FF 4+ permanently"
Sun Shark Bomber AA range typo fixed.
Updated Custodian stats

Ideas:
Ethereal becomes "Inspiring Leader" - would this make people finally consider taking one?
Tiger Shark AX-1-0 Formation of 1 for 200 to 225pts (currently available as formation of 2 for 375). Taking them singly would be an advantage, since it avoids the chance of over-kill from a unit with 2 TK D3 weapons, which is why it would need a higher price.
XV104 Riptide: increase standard firepower from AP5 AT6 to AP4 AT5, and Ion Accelerator from MW4+ slow firing to MW3+ slow firing. Yme_loc suggested dropping slow firing to increase its firepower, but I'd rather try alternatives approaches first since slow-firing does a decent job of representing the over/nova-charged model from 40K.

Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons

I have added another battle report to the Battle Report section of the forum. If you'd like to see the action, click here

http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 84&t=25418


Some highlights include the BTS being soundly beaten, despite the FF4+ upgrade. I think this is a very useful upgrade and gives the Tau a new set of options (particularly for dealing with fully armour enemies like Minervan), but it is by no means some form of a win button.

Image

The Riptides' combination of speed and firepower was extremely useful, and I can see these becoming very popular units.

Image

And the Sun Shark Bomber has a real role due to the Pulse Bomb 3BP Blast weapon.

Image


This was another game where the Tay army got really badly mauled, only to pull the game back gradually by a combination of luck and pure unadulterated focus on scoring the points at whatever the cost.

I'd say the Vior'la list is coming along well, and is probably reaching the stage where it is a matter of making minor tweaks and points adjustments rather than revolutionary changes.

Compared to the Tau army it is based on, it does not appear overpowered - the biggest innovation to the existing list is the upgrade to allow Firewarriors FF4+, which hasn't stopped them being beaten and broken in the last few games. The army does have the ability to bounce back though, and the comparitive resilience of Riptides and the Pulse bomb armed Sun Shark have helped with that. Having a Blast weapon available on the bomber has a far greater effect than its stats would indicate as it punishes enemy formations that don't spread out at least little.
Full report http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 84&t=25418

Version 0.7 will be up soon, and comments/suggestions/input are as welcome as ever.

Author:  Alf O'Mega [ Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons

What are you using as the riptide proxies on the pictures? They look pretty good from what I can see.

Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.6. Battle vs 1K Sons

Alf O'Mega wrote:
What are you using as the riptide proxies on the pictures? They look pretty good from what I can see.


They are from Dark Realm Miniatures. I'll try get the name of the model today, they are a decent proxy.


The next unit I'd like to talk about is the Orca. It's a terrific model, and I love the idea of a dropship screaming down behind enemy lines with Firewarriors or Crisis Suits. It suits the idea of a more aggressive, fire-warrior heavy army that is less about shooting and scooting away. It's simply that it looks like it needs a little tweaking to make that a viable strategy.

The most direct comparison is probably the Thunderhawk. Space Marines have some extremely viable assault units so hardly need extra incentive to use THs, but the transport itself is also in a different league in survivability, FF damage output, and weaponry at only 50pt premium over an Orca. It's also an iconic Marine unit, so the idea isn't to try to bridge the gap and make the Orca any where near as versatile. The orca only needs one thing to make it worth considering in a list, and that's survivability while it gets its expensive cargo to the destination.

Here's the head to head comparison:

Thunderhawk (200pts)
War Engine, Aircraft Bomber DC2
Reinforced Armour 4+ CC 6+ FF4+
Weapons:
15cm AP4+/AA5+, RF
15cm AP4+/AA5+, LF
30cm AP4+/AA5+, FxF
75cm AP4+/AT4+, FxF
Capacity 8 (Terminators count as 2)

Orca Dropship (150pts)
War Engine, Aircraft Bomber DC2
Armour 4+ CC 6+ FF6+
Weapons:
15cm AA6+,
45cm AP5+/AT6+
45cm AT6+
Capacity 12 (Crisis count as 2)

What I propose is the weapons are left as they are (the idea is not to make a versatile TH-style gunship) and the FF remains 6+, and the improvement is in the one area that is necessary for this to be a decent idea as a drop ship.

Orca Assault Dropship (175pts)
War Engine, Aircraft Bomber DC2
Armour 4+ CC 6+ FF6+ Tau Deflector Field
Weapons:
15cm AA6+,
45cm AP5+/AT6+
45cm AT6+
Capacity 12 (Crisis count as 2)

That's a 25pt increase in return for a Tau Deflector Field. This doesn't make it as survivable as the Reinforced Thunderhawk against most hits, but suits the light-weight but High-Tech approach, and feels a lot more 'Tau'. That might be enough to tempt some players to load up an expensive formation and storm the enemy's blitz for a change.

(BTW the external-balance comparison shows a price increase may not be strictly necessary, but it helps with the goal of not making the Vior'la Tau list an easy choice as 'Better' than the original Tau list it is based on. Alternatives include dropping weapons instead)

Page 2 of 33 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/