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Tau Vior'la v2.0

 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 2:09 am 
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What do you guys think about this list? I'm planing on using it soon, but I can't decide if I'm overrating the Manta alpha strike.


3000 POINTS
NetEA Tau Vior'la (2.2)
==================================================

Core formations:
FIRE WARRIOR BREACHER CADRE [400]
6 Fire Warrior Breacher units, 3 Devilfish, Skyray, Shas'o Commander

FIRE WARRIOR BREACHER CADRE [300]
6 Fire Warrior Breacher units, 3 Devilfish, Skyray

FIRE WARRIOR BREACHER CADRE [250] <-- This one starts inside the Orca
6 Fire Warrior Breacher units, 2 Pathfinder units


Support formations:
BROADSIDE GROUP [300] <-- This one starts inside the Manta
6 XV88 Broadside battlesuits

HEAVY BATTLESUIT CADRE [350] <-- This one starts inside the Manta
Shas'el Commander, 3 XV109 Y'Vahra

KX139 TA'UNAR SUPREMACY [225]
1 KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Battlesuit unit, Pulse-Ordinance Multi-Driver

KX139 TA'UNAR SUPREMACY [225]
1 KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Battlesuit unit, Pulse-Ordinance Multi-Driver


Air caste formations:
MANTA DROPSHIP [575] <-- Deployed by Planetfall

SPACECRAFT [225]
1 Protector Class II Cruiser

ORCA DROPSHIP [150] <-- Deployed as a regular bomber


It's a bit short on activations for my taste, but the Manta is very expensive[/quote]

The Manta is difficult to apply. When I planet fell, I would drop everything together on a flank, to roll the carpet. Or drop with the objective of taking BTS, Blitz, and denying TSNP. Its a one trick pony. Be careful as your BTS is a gift in planet fall!

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:20 am 
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@Cachivachi: I appreciate you weighing in with your concerns. Could you provide a little more detail on your games to help give a better perspective? Specifically, what list build your group finds to be OP, maybe specific units and what folks don't like about them, and what lists are struggling against them.

I have to disagree about this list not losing anything from third sphere. Three major losses include:
1) no hammerheads, which means no hover tanks avoiding CC and popping up behind cover;
2) loss of cheap recon formations, which are key to the popular high activation "pop corn" tau lists and a great for screening and setting up Combined Fire first term alpha strikes;
3) general loss of range. Most of the list functions at a max of 45cm. Third Sphere uses the hammerheads to shoot up advancing forces as they close.

I'm not discounting what you're saying, I want to have a better perspective on your concerns. There could be an aspect or stress test not previously considered, it's why we have open testing! I've worked to try and keep heavy suits from being too competitive when spammed, but maybe another look is necessary.

I will add, if someone is choosing to play a list that's boring to play against doesn't necessarily mean it's also OP unless it's easily rolling opponents and lists are struggling to find ways to beat it. Maybe a rule similar to the Aussie's DBAD could help at tournaments.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:24 am 
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@Carlix Take a stab at it! Mantas fall in that same awkward category as reavers and other titans in that point range. Since epic is so activation dependent, it's hard for formations/units that expensive to earn their value. Doesn't mean they're not fun to play with though, or look awesome on the table!

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 10:26 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
I struggle to win many games with Vior'la in my local meta, what kind of lists are you facing and using against it? I'd be keen to see a take on a suit-heavy OP list as I find myself wishing for that 3rd skyray most of the time


Basically full WE in the first versions of this list, today almost full WE with the preceptive pathfinder formations to unlock the WE and use markerlights...

Usually in minigeddon or 2000 points games... So you can imagine results.

CarlixTomix wrote:

No offense, but this makes very little sense to me. Heavy battlesuits were already limited in the transition from the previous iteration of Vior'la list to this one, as they were core before.
Other than that, you probably didn't notice that core to support ratio is 1:2 for Vior'la list (its 1:3 in Third sphere list), and making it 1:1 would definitely cripple the list.


Said to you a lot of times. Even yesterday by whatsapp...

It would definitely cripple the list as you play the mandatory core to use as much WE as you can. Usially in minigeddon or 2000 points lists, as you know...

::)

CarlixTomix wrote:

If anything, Vior'la lost range comparing to the Third sphere expansion Tau list, as for example every Hammerheads version has a more range than its equivalent Heavy Battlesuit version, or fire warriors losing their 30 cm range shot.
Vior'la list capitalizes on the 15-45cm range while Third Sphere feels more comfortable at 30-75cm range.
Only Supremacy and Stormsurge are an exception to this.



You barely used hammerheads. They're much less durable than WE battlesuits as you know. And tell me you don't use Supremacy and Stormsurge...

::)

CarlixTomix wrote:

About the "without any handicap" part, Vior'la lost Tetras and piranhas, as they are a mere upgrade to a 200 points formation instead of a super cheap formation itself.
Also, Vior'la lost Barracudas in exchange for Razorsharks, and while they are good enough their cost is 200 points instead of 150, losing some list flexibility.
Not to mention Tigersharks AX-1-0.



Tetras and piranhas formations can be replaced with pathfinders w/transports, almost with te same function, price, but increased durability (infantry in cover thanks to vehicles). So...

CarlixTomix wrote:

This is weird, I didn't have any good results in my local meta and the other players agree that it's underperforming right now.
Could you please bring us more information on what list did you play against?



You always say "this is weird", "it makes no sense", but all of us told you... Using that list you lost just once, vs AMTL full of long range MW...

gunslinger007 wrote:
@Cachivachi: I appreciate you weighing in with your concerns. Could you provide a little more detail on your games to help give a better perspective? Specifically, what list build your group finds to be OP, maybe specific units and what folks don't like about them, and what lists are struggling against them.

I have to disagree about this list not losing anything from third sphere. Three major losses include:
1) no hammerheads, which means no hover tanks avoiding CC and popping up behind cover;
2) loss of cheap recon formations, which are key to the popular high activation "pop corn" tau lists and a great for screening and setting up Combined Fire first term alpha strikes;
3) general loss of range. Most of the list functions at a max of 45cm. Third Sphere uses the hammerheads to shoot up advancing forces as they close.

I'm not discounting what you're saying, I want to have a better perspective on your concerns. There could be an aspect or stress test not previously considered, it's why we have open testing! I've worked to try and keep heavy suits from being too competitive when spammed, but maybe another look is necessary.

I will add, if someone is choosing to play a list that's boring to play against doesn't necessarily mean it's also OP unless it's easily rolling opponents and lists are struggling to find ways to beat it. Maybe a rule similar to the Aussie's DBAD could help at tournaments.

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Hi. Basically think that this list is OP in minigeddon and <2000 point games, due to WE spam. And keeps competitive in >2000 point games.

About what you say about the lacks of this list:

Hammerheads - Very vulnerable to artillery or teleporting units. Long range WE suits much more robust in this role. Not a "glass hammer" as the hammerheads are.

Lost of cheap recon - They mantain pathfinders as core options, wich are cheap too, and can be used as screen with increased durability (because are infantry) and can be almost as mobile as tetras are.

General loss of range - Totally disagree, Basically because of Stormsurge long range fire (1x MW3+, 2xAT5 guided) and Supremacy, wich can be spammed at will. Plus having new indirect fire capability with 3rd phase lacks. All of this units with increased survival capabilities with better armor and WE rules.

Nonetheless, Vior'la keeps Manta and Orca to deploy short range units everywhere, mantaining good antiair capabilities, and with new AT/antiWE weapons.

Just my opinion. All of the exposed pretends to be constructive criticism. Please, take it this way. Maybe it has been said in a rough way because my english is not the best.

To finnish, as a funny curiosity, here, in our local NetEA group, we made a joke: "To r ape*" is translated to spanish as "Violar". We call this list, when used by CarlixTomix, "Lista de Violar" or "R ape list" in a friendly way. :D

* Forum didn't let me put this word. It's just a curiosity. If someone thinks it's not apropiate, i will erase it.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 2:18 pm 
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@Cachivache, please let's not flood this thread with personal complaints. Whatever you have to tell me, let's talk it privately.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 2:54 pm 
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Cachivache wrote:
Hi. Basically think that this list is OP in minigeddon and <2000 point games, due to WE spam. And keeps competitive in >2000 point games.

About what you say about the lacks of this list:

Hammerheads - Very vulnerable to artillery or teleporting units. Long range WE suits much more robust in this role. Not a "glass hammer" as the hammerheads are.

Lost of cheap recon - They mantain pathfinders as core options, wich are cheap too, and can be used as screen with increased durability (because are infantry) and can be almost as mobile as tetras are.

General loss of range - Totally disagree, Basically because of Stormsurge long range fire (1x MW3+, 2xAT5 guided) and Supremacy, wich can be spammed at will. Plus having new indirect fire capability with 3rd phase lacks. All of this units with increased survival capabilities with better armor and WE rules.

Nonetheless, Vior'la keeps Manta and Orca to deploy short range units everywhere, mantaining good antiair capabilities, and with new AT/antiWE weapons.

Just my opinion. All of the exposed pretends to be constructive criticism. Please, take it this way. Maybe it has been said in a rough way because my english is not the best.

To finnish, as a funny curiosity, here, in our local NetEA group, we made a joke: "To r ape*" is translated to spanish as "Violar". We call this list, when used by CarlixTomix, "Lista de Violar" or "R ape list" in a friendly way. :D

* Forum didn't let me put this word. It's just a curiosity. If someone thinks it's not apropiate, i will erase it.


Y hay un problema. inicialmente cada armada, cada lista esta puesta para un equilibrio a 3000 puntos. este fue games workshop dispositivo creado. El mismo dispositivo ha sido traido por la comunidad. Es un problema conocido con Epic. Epic fue una linea recta para alcanzar una percepción de equilibrio.
Una vez que se san los 3000 puntos, se crean polos opuestos. Donde la armada se convierte no naturalmente fuerte mientras las otras armadas sufren. Por ejemplo: el iron warrior de brad fue aplastado a 5000 puntos en contra AMTL. [url]http://armiger84.blogspot.com/2019/05/20190525-iron-warriors-v31-vs-amtl.html/url] AMTL es conocido por ser una bestia sobre 3000 puntos.
La misma situación ocurre cuando es por debajo de los 3000 puntos. algunas armadas tienen ventaja. Y otras sufren esto internamente a lo largo de la imperfección.
Yo creo que esto es donde el abuso que ustedes están experimentando proviene. La constante de 3000 puntos inyecto en el proyecto de diseño para equilibrar todas las armadas. Al recto del ocurrente desarrollo y el proceso de aprobación, no debería haber cambios.
No hay nada que diga que deben jugar a este nivel. mini-geddon en si mismo ha impuesto limites para restablecer el equilibrio. Y con cualquier war-game es un social común acuerdo entre los oponentes. Por lo tanto cuando se juega afuera de las lineas de 3000 puntos disenadas, se deberían hacer ajustes de la información y la experiencia cuando se necesita. como mini-army, yo no creo que el proceso de desarrollo is imperfecto cuando se considera la información de una division mas pequeña de las reglas internas. mini-geddon.

And there is the problem. Initially every army, every list is set up for balance and tested at 3000 points. This was a GW created device. The same device has been carried on by the community. It is a known problem with Epic. Epic was a linear design to achieve a perceived balance.
Once you pass 3000 points polar opposites are created. Where armies become unnaturally strong while other armies suffer. Example; Brad's Iron Warriors got smashed at 5000 points against AMTL. AMTL is known to be a beast above 3000 points. [url]http://armiger84.blogspot.com/2019/05/20190525-iron-warriors-v31-vs-amtl.html/url]
The same situation occurs when below 3000 points. Some armies have an advantage. And others suffer this internal core wide design flaw.

I believe this is where the abuse you are experiencing is coming from. The standard constant (3000 points) injected into the design process to achieve balance across armies. In this respect to the current development and approval process, no changes should be made.

There is nothing that says you must play at this point level. Mini-geddon in itself has imposed limits in an attempt to restore balance. And with any war-game it is a social argeement between to opponents. Therefore when playing outside of the linear 3000 point design line, you should make adjustments as the data and experience dictates. As mini-geddon. I do not believe the development process to be flawed when considering data from a micro sub set of the core rules, mini-geddon.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:09 pm 
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I think folias hit the nail on the head here. These are tournament lists designed with tournament play (3000pts) in mind. Most of the lists start to bend the further you get from that standard number, as evidenced by Miniggedon having additional restrictions/boosts for different armies to allow for more fair play at that point level.

All that said, I'm still happy to consider you points regarding list balance. I'd just ask you provide a little more insight into the games you're experiencing. Ideally battle reports since they are the most detailed, but alternatively lists used, objectives gained, and descriptions or narratives of your games. If nothing else, the community might be able to offer suggestions on tactics to combat the list!

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:37 pm 
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like Folais and Gunslinger say, I think most lists are skewed at minigeddon, space marines are absolutely awful if you can't take aircraft, and eldar were too powerful with the double-retain and now are pretty poor with no retain at all......

I'd still be interested to see both the builds that are proving problematic as well as the lists that are losing to them, it might also be of benefit to see the kind of tables you play on as terrain density can have a huge impact on many lists, but especially one with a shooting focus

Kyrt wrote:
Do you play with 3rd phase also?


Aye, I tend to do a little better with them, extra range and higher activation count helps

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:40 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
like Folais and Gunslinger say, I think most lists are skewed at minigeddon, space marines are absolutely awful if you can't take aircraft, and eldar were too powerful with the double-retain and now are pretty poor with no retain at all......

I'd still be interested to see both the builds that are proving problematic as well as the lists that are losing to them, it might also be of benefit to see the kind of tables you play on as terrain density can have a huge impact on many lists, but especially one with a shooting focus

Kyrt wrote:
Do you play with 3rd phase also?


Aye, I tend to do a little better with them, extra range and higher activation count helps
Might we see you bring them to a tournament?

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:54 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
like Folais and Gunslinger say, I think most lists are skewed at minigeddon, space marines are absolutely awful if you can't take aircraft, and eldar were too powerful with the double-retain and now are pretty poor with no retain at all......

I'd still be interested to see both the builds that are proving problematic as well as the lists that are losing to them, it might also be of benefit to see the kind of tables you play on as terrain density can have a huge impact on many lists, but especially one with a shooting focus

Kyrt wrote:
Do you play with 3rd phase also?


Aye, I tend to do a little better with them, extra range and higher activation count helps
Might we see you bring them to a tournament?
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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:01 am 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
like Folais and Gunslinger say, I think most lists are skewed at minigeddon, space marines are absolutely awful if you can't take aircraft, and eldar were too powerful with the double-retain and now are pretty poor with no retain at all......

I'd still be interested to see both the builds that are proving problematic as well as the lists that are losing to them, it might also be of benefit to see the kind of tables you play on as terrain density can have a huge impact on many lists, but especially one with a shooting focus

Kyrt wrote:
Do you play with 3rd phase also?


Aye, I tend to do a little better with them, extra range and higher activation count helps
Might we see you bring them to a tournament?
Twist his arm to bring them to worlds!

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We will be in Scotland. I can bring whatever you would like.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:27 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
Might we see you bring them to a tournament?


Probably not this year, I'm only doing the world's and the GT and I'm planning on painting orks for the foreseeable future, I may try and get my tau painted up after that

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:56 pm 
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A quick one, we are going to play a game and we noticed that the Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver shows as having ''Ignore Cover'' instead on ''Ind''. It has Indirect Fire, isn´t it?

And by the way, thank you very much for dropping the RA from several armours, it was a pain to roll dice thrice and separately for each unit from several formations for saves.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:18 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
A quick one, we are going to play a game and we noticed that the Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver shows as having ''Ignore Cover'' instead on ''Ind''. It has Indirect Fire, isn´t it?

And by the way, thank you very much for dropping the RA from several armours, it was a pain to roll dice thrice and separately for each unit from several formations for saves.
Correct, Ind not IC. Carlix brought that to my attention and I need to get the fix posted.

And glad you like the direction its heading in! I think we're pretty close to a final version to push to approval.

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