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Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:31 am 
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lord-bruno wrote:
I have to say that this is a great change!! Clearly closer to the fluff, the role of the unit, and common sense.


Great, let us know if you get a chance to use either of them in a game.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:55 pm 
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It's my own personal bias on account of how I've assembled mine and love it to bits, but I do think a Pulse Blast Cannon variant of the Stormsurge could also be interesting and also encourage people more towards a FF focused army. Something with a middling AT/AP weapon at range but a half reasonable TK firefight value. (in old 40K, 2 Strength D shots is titan class - same as a phantom's pulsar but lacking the blast)

Don't see it as something easy to just drop into a force without needing retooling the rest of your army around, but seems to me that kind of thing is what Vior'la and other expansions should be about. Nothing is better than a Blastcannon Stormsurge charging it's way up the field and deploying it's anchors, then watch the enemy nearby scuttle to get out of deadly range.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:01 am 
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Got a half dozen games in with this list in the past several months. Some things have become apparent. My opponent pointed out in the last game that it was intentional why the list structure in the approved list was built to disallow the AX-0-1, Manta and the spaceship being valid in a 3k list. 4 of the 6 games I've played with the list recently have used all three. The amount of TK that the list can put out is intimidating. That on top of the improved FF ability and the addition of the BP indirect in the Supremacy has made this list quite well rounded maybe too well rounded. The planetfalling Manta can deposit 20 FF4+ infantry and then deliver some incredible firepower at a long range then support the engagements with 8 more supporting shots. My other opponent posted a battle rep in the BatRep thread against Squats. The dropping Manta + infantry just obliterated a formation of 12 strong warriors and an overlord.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Can someone explain to my why I should play the normal Tau List compared to Viorla?

Except for Kroot and the reduction of AX-10 and Tetra units (In my opinion both reductions haven't a real impact) Viorla is better in every way.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:59 pm 
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Knuffel wrote:
Can someone explain to my why I should play the normal Tau List compared to Viorla?

Except for Kroot and the reduction of AX-10 and Tetra units (In my opinion both reductions haven't a real impact) Viorla is better in every way.


Well it prevents the ultra common Kroot horde + AX10 swarm build that has dominated so many tournaments around the world lately...

/sarcasm

In all seriousness that is the major problen with this list in my view, it misses the point of NetEA development where to add something, you need to remove something else to make room (not always at a 1 to 1 ratio of course)

I have been developing a vior'la variant for epicUK which removes hammerheads and recon formations entirely and adds all the new battlesuit options, I'd like to see something similar for NetEA....

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Yeah I'd love to see an EUK version with eventual backport to NetEA, especially as MSL has basically quit the board and even before hasn't been doing Dev anyways. Hopefully you get there soon, Kyuss

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:26 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
In all seriousness that is the major problen with this list in my view, it misses the point of NetEA development where to add something, you need to remove something else to make room (not always at a 1 to 1 ratio of course)

I have been developing a vior'la variant for epicUK which removes hammerheads and recon formations entirely and adds all the new battlesuit options, I'd like to see something similar for NetEA....


This is a discussion that's been had a few times earlier in this thread. First of all I don't agree with the above about the point of netEA development. I don't think that's a good rule or something we should aspire to. I have no problem with keeping the old list untouched, they represent a time when a lot of us older players started to play epic and came to love this game.

But now that we've starter to develop lists with some of the new stuff from GW then I don't think forcing people not to be able to use hammerheads (or whatever unit) just so that old school lists are protected is a good idea. You might not want to play a forced suits heavy or skimmer heavy list or something else, but just regular tau in the newer incarnation were there's titans and knights size stuff. Otherwise It might hinder newer players from liking epic.
At the same time I recognice that certainly all things don't need to be added all the time and that developing a new list every time GW starts selling a new mini is of course silly. Some races in the game need it more though.

I see Tau as one such case. Tau were a rather new race when the first tau list came about. The third phase list is lacking a lot of the stuff that makes epic armies interesting to play (eg war engines/titans) because they weren't around at that time. I find the third phase list fun to play, but it feels a bit like an incomplete epic-list.

It's like what we had going for tyranids where the onachus list is for people who like old school tyranids, and then we had leviathan (sadly development of the list stopped) who represents a newer incarnation of tyranids. Another example is necrons with the approved list and the sautekh one for newcrons.

I see no problem with any of these three cases. With tau it'll be like if a person feels like playing a more old school tau version, then third phase will always be there. But if you want a list with knight/titan size units, then there's Vior'la.

So to answer your question :
Knuffel wrote:
Can someone explain to my why I should play the normal Tau List compared to Viorla?

Except for Kroot and the reduction of AX-10 and Tetra units (In my opinion both reductions haven't a real impact) Viorla is better in every way.


You play the third phase if you like old school tau or vior'la if your more into newer tau.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:44 pm 
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Borka, It is not about old and new even if that concept even exists, adding the new GW toys or not. It is a bout giving a distinct flavor to each list, a difference, a reason to exist as another list. A new list that has almost the same as other but with added units is no new list, just the other with additions. Using your example, i don't know about Leviathan, but Sauthek at least has a distinct flavour, so it is a proper list.

Looking forward for that one, Kyuss.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:04 pm 
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I'm in agreement with Kyuss and Abetillo. The Voir'la list could use some tweeking, it's not the same as the scarab conflict vs Sautekh. There are a bunch of ballanceing aspect put in to the Sautekh list to compensated for the additions of fliers and ranged weapon units. With the Voir'la list it seems to just be the original list plus a bunch of powerful additions. I really like playing the Tau vior'la list but its experienced a fair share of power creap from the original. Out of the last 10 games I've played my win record is 7:3.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
A new list that has almost the same as other but with added units is no new list, just the other with additions.

I guess the difference is that I don't see that as a problem if it's needed. The third phase list, even though it's fun to play, lacks some elements of what makes epic interesting as I mentioned above. The tau army has evolved in fluff and with miniatures considerably since the third phase list was created. So we have a great chance to make tau even more fun and interesting to play in epic. If that makes the third phase list somewhat outdated, then that's fine, it's not like you can't play it if you want to.

Playing a list with all the new suits, but not having the possibility to take hammerheads for instance, wouldn't feel like I was playing a combined arms tau army. I think it would be healthy for us to let the game evolve and not stagnate.

atension wrote:
With the Voir'la list it seems to just be the original list plus a bunch of powerful additions. I really like playing the Tau vior'la list but its experienced a fair share of power creap from the original. Out of the last 10 games I've played my win record is 7:3.

That's a problem. I know some things I'd change and tone down if I was AC of the list. I'm not suggesting we should make the list stronger than the old list, just add new options.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Borka wrote:
This is a discussion that's been had a few times earlier in this thread. First of all I don't agree with the above about the point of netEA development. I don't think that's a good rule or something we should aspire to. I have no problem with keeping the old list untouched, they represent a time when a lot of us older players started to play epic and came to love this game.

But now that we've starter to develop lists with some of the new stuff from GW then I don't think forcing people not to be able to use hammerheads (or whatever unit) just so that old school lists are protected is a good idea. You might not want to play a forced suits heavy or skimmer heavy list or something else, but just regular tau in the newer incarnation were there's titans and knights size stuff. Otherwise It might hinder newer players from liking epic.
At the same time I recognice that certainly all things don't need to be added all the time and that developing a new list every time GW starts selling a new mini is of course silly. Some races in the game need it more though.

I see Tau as one such case. Tau were a rather new race when the first tau list came about. The third phase list is lacking a lot of the stuff that makes epic armies interesting to play (eg war engines/titans) because they weren't around at that time. I find the third phase list fun to play, but it feels a bit like an incomplete epic-list.

It's like what we had going for tyranids where the onachus list is for people who like old school tyranids, and then we had leviathan (sadly development of the list stopped) who represents a newer incarnation of tyranids. Another example is necrons with the approved list and the sautekh one for newcrons.

I see no problem with any of these three cases. With tau it'll be like if a person feels like playing a more old school tau version, then third phase will always be there.


Don't get me wrong, if there was no epic Tau list and we were writing a new one from scratch, it would probably have all the toys, but we aren't in that position, we have a tau list which plays perfectly well and competitively, it can be a head scratcher, but it's a solid, well loved and well used Tau list.

Epic list development, for better or worse, is about producing strongly themed lists with distinct playstyles, whether that's specific eldar craftworlds, IG regiments, space marine chapters etc, you may not agree with that, but that is the path we have gone down with NetEA development, a new list should offer a new playstyle, different to the original either drastically or subtly, it's not about just shoehorning all the new stuff GW releases in.

The Codex marine list is missing dozens of new units from 40k, and has 23 unique unit types (plus 5 aircraft/titans which are not specific to them) as opposed to 22 for the tau (that I can count, and how many competetive marine players use land raiders, assault marines, whirlwinds and vindicator formations?) so the same argument could be made to modernise it, but we don't because it's established and plays a certain way, we look to variant lists to include new units and playstyles, and avoid making a list which is basically codex marines++ because that list plays perfectly well in the style of codex astartes and doesn't *need* anything adding, even though it's 10+ years out of date with current 40k fluff. I would say from my experiences, the Tau list is the same, it plays perfectly well, has enough variance in builds and even includes a big war engine for people who like that sort of thing

Quote:
But if you want a list with knight/titan size units, then there's Vior'la.


And most people (myself included) do, and that is the main draw of the list over the 3rd phase expansion, so make it more about the knight/titan sized units, let them be the focus and the formations which do the heavy lifting.... from the (comparatively limited) background I have found about the Vior'la sept, they have the best firewarriors and pathfinders around and are known for using many new and experimental battlesuits

Having been testing the EUK version extensively over the last couple of months, I find it plays perfectly well as a combined-arms force using pathfinders to call co-ordinated fire, then having the heavy suits pounce on the markerlit formation and shred it with their firepower, it has the tau mutual support elements, but a more in-your-face feel which I think gives it enough flavour to stand alone, it needs to play more aggressively than the 3rd phase list and has more of the tools to do so

Quote:
So to answer your question :

You play the third phase if you like old school tau or vior'la if your more into newer tau.


that's like saying 'if you want to play a restricted version of vior'la then try the 3rd phase expansion list'

95% of the builds you can make with the 3rd phase list you can replicate almost exactly with the Vior'la list, so there is very little reason to play it, unless for some reason you really like kroot.....

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:04 pm 
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some ideas I've had to try and keep as many toys as possible but change the flavour of the list a bit, these are just spitballing for the most part and aren't necessarily meant to all be adopted at once

-drop hammerhead formations, but keep them as upgrades to firewarrior formations

-drop recon formations but continue to allow pathfinders to take pirhanas/tetras as upgrades

-drop core:support ratio from 3:1 to 2:1 to make activation spam difficult and encourage different force structures (this change alone would give people a reason to play 3rd phase over Vior'la, maybe not the best reason but it makes them moderately distinct from each other)

-move riptides into core choice section, move crisis to support or make them into fire warrior upgrades

-weapon options on supremacy suits (this is in the EUK version and the 'Taudowsword' with heavy railcannon has proven a popular and effective choice)

-maybe take a few aircraft options away? does the list need 3 flavours of bomber and 2 flavours of fighter? reeeaally?

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:54 pm 
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I tend to agree with the mindset that the Vior'la list should be tailor to a unique style. A few of the ideas I've thrown around with my group and would be interested in play testing and hearing other's feedback on include:

- core formations switched to fire warriors and Pathfinders. Instead of having Fireblade cadre as an upgrade, build it into the formation with the appropriate point increase to reflect the higher training and harder hitting nature of the Sept. I thought a 1:2 ratio would work nicely as well.
- placing riptides as a core choice could be interesting as well, and allow for a nice robust placement of the Shas'o. A little concerned about the spamability.
- switch the stormsurge from MW to TK to reflect the fluff of it being designed to hunt imperial Titans. Points might need to be reviewed.
- dropping recon formations to increase reliance on Pathfinders per the fluff. If that is too much to swallow, they should at least be brought in line with the third sphere list.
- bringing the orca in line with the 3rd sphere list.
- possibly look to remove barracudas and Tiger Sharks, including AX-1-0. The change of the stormsurge would allow for TK in the list. Removing the 3rd sphere flyers also open up the list to the razor and sun shark which would add to it's unique feel.
- I like the idea of different loadouts for the supremacy armor. I think it better captures the scale and function of what is, for all intents and purposes, a Titan equivalent. I'd like to see it have the same flexibility.
- include the ghostkeel, probably at the removal of the stealth suits. I envision it serving a similar role, but maybe a formation of 3 or 4, with 2dc each?
- revisit vespids. They currently compete directly with the recon, which frankly is a stronger choice. Maybe with a recon repricing or removal, it would open up more space for the vespids. Subbing in kroot could also work, but it could be fun to stick with the vespids for that unique flavor.
- removing hammerheads would be tricky as that's a big part of a Tau gun line. However, Kyuss' suggestion to make them an upgrade allows them to stay in the list, but could drive the cost of fire warrior formations up pretty quickly.
- Manta revisited. This is more of an issue to be discussed for all Tau lists, but might as well add it in as a talking point.

I'm looking forward to seeing people's thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:12 pm 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
I tend to agree with the mindset that the Vior'la list should be tailor to a unique style. A few of the ideas I've thrown around with my group and would be interested in play testing and hearing other's feedback on include:

- core formations switched to fire warriors and Pathfinders. Instead of having Fireblade cadre as an upgrade, build it into the formation with the appropriate point increase to reflect the higher training and harder hitting nature of the Sept. I thought a 1:2 ratio would work nicely as well.


EUK Vior'la fire warriors have 2x pulse blasters (15cm AP5+) and FF4+ so they have reduced firepower but decent if not exceptional engagement prowess, IIRC the recent tau fanlist has breachers at the same sort of place?

Quote:
- placing riptides as a core choice could be interesting as well, and allow for a nice robust placement of the Shas'o. A little concerned about the spamability.


at 350pts per formation I don't think this is an issue, I think you really need the option to upgrade them with a skyray as they lack fearless so are vulnerable to engagements if used rashly (as they should be)

Quote:
- switch the stormsurge from MW to TK to reflect the fluff of it being designed to hunt imperial Titans. Points might need to be reviewed.


definite need to review the points if this is the case, maybe give them 2 macro shots instead so they don't step on the toes of the railcannon supremacy suit? as they stand they are a bit weak, firepower wise

Quote:
- dropping recon formations to increase reliance on Pathfinders per the fluff. If that is too much to swallow, they should at least be brought in line with the third sphere list.


they work really well in my test games so far, I typically use 3 formations, I also included the 6 on foot or 4 and two devilfish option

Quote:
- bringing the orca in line with the 3rd sphere list.


I actually like the strike-modified orca, it gives the list decent air assault potential without going overboard

Quote:
- possibly look to remove barracudas and Tiger Sharks, including AX-1-0. The change of the stormsurge would allow for TK in the list. Removing the 3rd sphere flyers also open up the list to the razor and sun shark which would add to it's unique feel.


YES! done exactly that in the EUK version (kept the AX-10s for now, but they could be dropped)

Quote:
- I like the idea of different loadouts for the supremacy armor. I think it better captures the scale and function of what is, for all intents and purposes, a Titan equivalent. I'd like to see it have the same flexibility.


I have it at 225 with either railcannon (volcano cannon stats) or nexus missiles (3x AT5+ guided missiles) with +50pts to upgrade to pulse driver, think it works well so far
Quote:
- include the ghostkeel, probably at the removal of the stealth suits. I envision it serving a similar role, but maybe a formation of 3 or 4, with 2dc each?


I don't think the Ghostkeels should be war engines, they're dreadnought sized, I went with 4+RA instead and had them replace stands in the stealth formations at 25pts each (may need to change)

Quote:
- revisit vespids. They currently compete directly with the recon, which frankly is a stronger choice. Maybe with a recon repricing or removal, it would open up more space for the vespids. Subbing in kroot could also work, but it could be fun to stick with the vespids for that unique flavor.


I dropped them for a 'pure' list but yeah they need a niche, right now two sets in an orca is a badass assault formation, especially with the jump pack ability

Quote:
- removing hammerheads would be tricky as that's a big part of a Tau gun line. However, Kyuss' suggestion to make them an upgrade allows them to stay in the list, but could drive the cost of fire warrior formations up pretty quickly.


I haven't missed them with a combination of heavy railcannons and XV104/XV107 suits, you still have devilfish and skyrays for long range sniping with guided missiles....

Quote:
- Manta revisited. This is more of an issue to be discussed for all Tau lists, but might as well add it in as a talking point.


indeed, I dropped it to focus on the other war engines but it could definitely fit in

Sound ideas Gunslinger :)

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:48 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
gunslinger007 wrote:
I tend to agree with the mindset that the Vior'la list should be tailor to a unique style. A few of the ideas I've thrown around with my group and would be interested in play testing and hearing other's feedback on include:


- core formations switched to fire warriors and Pathfinders. Instead of having Fireblade cadre as an upgrade, build it into the formation with the appropriate point increase to reflect the higher training and harder hitting nature of the Sept. I thought a 1:2 ratio would work nicely as well.

EUK Vior'la fire warriors have 2x pulse blasters (15cm AP5+) and FF4+ so they have reduced firepower but decent if not exceptional engagement prowess, IIRC the recent tau fanlist has breachers at the same sort of place?

My first thought was to just remove cadre fireblade or increase it to 50 pts. I can see the idea. But loosing range, AP4+ going to 5+ and loosing the disrupt is a mayor drawback however for an army that usually has to break their enemies through shooting and blastmarkers. I'm don't think FF4+ is a good enough trade of. I still think shooting should be the main job for firewarriors and not assaults or prepping/supporting engagements., even in the vior'la list. To keep the special feel tau have in epic.

Quote:
Quote:
- placing riptides as a core choice could be interesting as well, and allow for a nice robust placement of the Shas'o. A little concerned about the spamability.


at 350pts per formation I don't think this is an issue, I think you really need the option to upgrade them with a skyray as they lack fearless so are vulnerable to engagements if used rashly (as they should be)


I have also toyed with this idea and thought about at the same time removing the crisis suit formation and instead have them as an upgrade for the firewarriors like 2 or 3 units. I have heard some whispers that that is what you've guys have been trying for the UK list. How has it been working? Is it only ever one unit of crisis taken for the Shas'o?

The riptide is the suit that I think needs the most reworking though. In epic we don't have to follow 40k stats like slaves, but I think (and this has been true for epic) a unit should only have weapons in epic the models actually have. Right now the riptide has 3 main weapons of which the actual miniature we're basing the rules on obviously only can have one.

Other than that and perhaps more importantly it also has to do with it's role on the battlefield. Right now it's a semi-long-distance shooting unit with 55 cm effective range (45 + 10 cm with jetpacks). I earlier suggested to Matt a complete rewrite and that's something I'd like ut to test. I'll just quote my self.

Borka wrote:
Riptide

They're described as a front line unit.

GW wrote:
As the massed Hammerheads and skyborne Mantas rained fire on the enemy line, the Riptides at the fore came under attack. Enemy shells exploded harmlessly off their armoured shells as each Riptide brought its arsenal to bear upon the defenders.
The heavy burst cannon, the Riptide's standard main armament, raked the walls, stitching patterns of death that cut Guardsmen in two. Missiles, from the Riptide's secondary weapon systems and from its accompanying Shielded Missile Drones, blazed outwards, leaving contrails as they streaked into the enemy's ranks.


My suggestion would be to change the weapons load out for our epic units quite a bit.

Riptide
Nova charged heavy burst cannon 30 cm 2x AP4+/AT5+, lance
Missile drone 30 cm, AP5+/AT6+
Twin Fusion blasters 15 cm, MW 4+

I base the lance on the nova charged H. burst cannon having rending in 40k. The above would match with a weapons configuration the model can actually have. It makes for a quite powerful formation, 3 MW + 6 lance shots per formation, but requires the user to close up and play more aggressively. The units has the jet pack rule and have + 10 cm range which negates this drawback somewhat. The ion cannon goes away so the unit doesn't step into storm surge territory and as it should really be a 60/75cm weapon in epic.



Quote:
Quote:
- switch the stormsurge from MW to TK to reflect the fluff of it being designed to hunt imperial Titans. Points might need to be reviewed.


definite need to review the points if this is the case, maybe give them 2 macro shots instead so they don't step on the toes of the railcannon supremacy suit? as they stand they are a bit weak, firepower wise

I agree with kyuss. I think TK should be reserved for the supremacy and also they do seem undergunned. I earlier suggested to Matt that the cluster rocket system should be added as well (it is a system that I believe the model always has. A theme for tau in epic has been that they have one weapon system more represented with stats than most other list do. Bringing a third one (or even a fourth) is only thematic

Quote:
Quote:
- dropping recon formations to increase reliance on Pathfinders per the fluff. If that is too much to swallow, they should at least be brought in line with the third sphere list.


they work really well in my test games so far, I typically use 3 formations, I also included the 6 on foot or 4 and two devilfish option

I'd prefer keeping them in the list, but yeah definetely get them in line with third phase.
Quote:
- bringing the orca in line with the 3rd sphere list.

Also agreed.

Quote:
Quote:
- possibly look to remove barracudas and Tiger Sharks, including AX-1-0. The change of the stormsurge would allow for TK in the list. Removing the 3rd sphere flyers also open up the list to the razor and sun shark which would add to it's unique feel.


YES! done exactly that in the EUK version (kept the AX-10s for now, but they could be dropped)

agreed the air space is to crowded.

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- I like the idea of different loadouts for the supremacy armor. I think it better captures the scale and function of what is, for all intents and purposes, a Titan equivalent. I'd like to see it have the same flexibility.


I have it at 225 with either railcannon (volcano cannon stats) or nexus missiles (3x AT5+ guided missiles) with +50pts to upgrade to pulse driver, think it works well so far


Seems like an interesting idea that I like. A simpler version could be to give the Pulse ordnance multi-driver dual firing modes as it has in 40k. With one being more concentrated with a singel template and Strength D (like TK in epic) and then a less powerful multiple templates version with ignore cover, which I assume Matt based his stats on.
Perhaps we could give it dual modes in epic as well. Something like

current stats... OR
60 cm 3+ TK (1)

I'm in favour of removing barrage though and only keep that for the airplane which would require changing the current stats as well.

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- include the ghostkeel, probably at the removal of the stealth suits. I envision it serving a similar role, but maybe a formation of 3 or 4, with 2dc each?

I don't think the Ghostkeels should be war engines, they're dreadnought sized, I went with 4+RA instead and had them replace stands in the stealth formations at 25pts each (may need to change)

Agreed, exactly the way I thought to include it, as an upgrade.

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- revisit vespids. They currently compete directly with the recon, which frankly is a stronger choice. Maybe with a recon repricing or removal, it would open up more space for the vespids. Subbing in kroot could also work, but it could be fun to stick with the vespids for that unique flavor.


I dropped them for a 'pure' list but yeah they need a niche, right now two sets in an orca is a badass assault formation, especially with the jump pack ability

I'm also in favor of removing them for a pure list.

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- removing hammerheads would be tricky as that's a big part of a Tau gun line. However, Kyuss' suggestion to make them an upgrade allows them to stay in the list, but could drive the cost of fire warrior formations up pretty quickly.


I haven't missed them with a combination of heavy railcannons and XV104/XV107 suits, you still have devilfish and skyrays for long range sniping with guided missiles....

I can't see my self removing such an iconic unit, wouldn't feel like I was playing a combined arms tau force.

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- Manta revisited. This is more of an issue to be discussed for all Tau lists, but might as well add it in as a talking point.


indeed, I dropped it to focus on the other war engines but it could definitely fit in

Sound ideas Gunslinger :)

Haven't really played the manta. What are the problems you see with it Gunslinger?


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