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Questoris Mechanicus v1.57 (Developmental)

 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.4 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:05 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.41 (experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:01 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.41 (experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:07 pm 
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Infiltrate: ok, I see your point. It just seemed rather cool an thematic to have Armiger's pouncing on formations.

WE: I reread the garrison rules and I'm not sure how I came to the conclusion you couldn't garrison WE under any circumstances.

New update to the list: I think the Acastus Knights need to have a different crit. They are 3DC and I think an extra point of damage would be more appropriate here.

Why do lancers have the power lance OR gauntlet? Don't they have both by default? Same for the Atrapos.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.41 (experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
New update to the list: I think the Acastus Knights need to have a different crit. They are 3DC and I think an extra point of damage would be more appropriate here.


In that case the Dominus Knights should also have it. Might be worth thinking about, but on three DC I'm not so sure how much difference it makes. And everyone having the same Crit makes it easier to remember.

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Why do lancers have the power lance OR gauntlet? Don't they have both by default? Same for the Atrapos.


Should be read as: "Can be used in either CC or FF, not both". But you're correct that your way of reading it might be an equally valid one. I'll try find some other way of writing that.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.41 (experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:39 pm 
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In that case the Dominus Knights should also have it. Might be worth thinking about, but on three DC I'm not so sure how much difference it makes. And everyone having the same Crit makes it easier to remember.



It should, just didn't check them :) The point is with a 3dc unit you have a 1/6 chance of it going up in smoke to a single hit and that really hurts a formation with just two units in it. Instakill just feels wrong when you're playing on a unit that large. Even the big titans have a bit more play than immediate death. Maybe look into the warhound crit?

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Should be read as: "Can be used in either CC or FF, not both". But you're correct that your way of reading it might be an equally valid one. I'll try find some other way of writing that.


Put the OR in the cell with the weapon stats, not the cell that lists the weapons the unit has.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.41 (experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:03 pm 
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Well, I guess we can try. If it makes them feel slightly bigger and beefier maybe it's a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.42 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:46 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.43 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:11 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.44 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:35 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.45 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:31 pm 
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Back from playing Knight World at ETC, and unsurprisingly the topic of "Knights" came up a few times.

One giant issue with Knights is that the main rules have not really been written with these types of formations in mind. This has led to some pretty problematic issues over line or sight and such, which if played in a "Rules as Written" way would make Knight-lists almost unplayable.

As I see it, Knights now in practice play as a hybrid between AV and WE, which means that they really should be considered their own type. These are issues that are fairly OK to deal with in real gaming situations with experienced players. I think it's safe to say that there has developed common sense informal standards over how to deal with WE 2 War Engine formations, particularly in assault situations, and when the formations are being shot at. Shortcuts are being taken so as not to bog down the game too much.

I do think however that these informal standards are at the risk of breaking down with the large sizes of the A-T knights (which people are going to use to play all Knights lists, not just Questoris Mechanicus). The terminator size bases of the new Knights just make everything twice as bad, so in order to reduce the worst absurdities of these bigger base sizes I'd like to propose the following formulation (at least for the Questoris Mechanicus list):

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Light War Engine Formations
Formations with two or more War Engines that have 2 DC and Walker do not obstruct line of sight or provide "hull down" within the same unit, meaning that shooting and FF line of sight is treated as a non-War Engine formation within (but not through) the unit.

In addition, formations with 2 or more War Engines with 2 DC do not have to roll their Fire Fight and Close Combat dice one at a time, but can roll each separate type of attack collectively. Their fire fight hits can hit any enemy unit, while close combat hits can only hit units in base contact. War Engines with 3 or more DC within such formations however function as normal War Engines (blocking LOS, giving "hull down" etc.) and need to be accounted for separately.


So to reiterate, the idea here is simply to codify what I think is the most common way of playing Knight-type formations that I'm familiar with. But perhaps there are other ways of looking at this that I have not come in contact with?

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.45 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:52 pm 
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I feel this is just overcomplication TBH. There was considerable debate whether knights should be WE at all vs very durable AV. Originally they were AV, but I'm not certain exactly why the WE idea was put forward. IIRC, there were concerns over how an army of multiple WE would impact bookkeeping as well as LOS issues and assaults with large scale access to barging.

Having played knights a few times, I don't think bookkeeping is that bad of an issue. However, the list is very unforgiving of your maneuvering with WE blocking LOS. Generally this can be overcome with good maneuvering and spreading out formations a bit. I've not seen any of the new AT stuff in person so I can't really comment on how it'll affect this.

I'm very concerned that you're adding a global rule change at a list level with this. DC2 we also affect Ordinatus Minorus, Macharius, and probably a few others I can't think of off the top of my head. Most of these function quite well with the existing rules and it's odd to have only some listed as "light" WE. I'd suggest that you instead look into makeing your knights AV and adjusting their armor to provide appropriate durability.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.45 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:59 pm 
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You're quite right that it's an attempt at making a more general rule. Like I've written, I think it's simply a codification of how these types of units are played anyway. And crucially, it would be the combination of DC 2 *and* Walker, so lots of units are exempted. If I'm correct in this, I don't see that it really changes anything, it just conforms the rules to how the game is already played.

I'm guessing the reason you don't find book-keeping to be that bad of an issue is because Knights are played in a way that doesn't bog down the game too much... In my experience, this way of playing is however not in accordance with the Rules as Written.

Making Knights into AV might solve a lot of these issues, but I don't see any way of doing that that doesn't create a number of other issues. The main problem with that solution might actually be that it feels completely wrong even with the older, smaller Knights. No-one will buy that the new Knights are not WE.

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.45 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:14 pm 
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Looking back at earlier arguments about what the proper way of representing Knights are, I saw the idea of them being 1DC WE with 4++ save. That's an interesting idea, but I think that Knights being 2DC is now too established to be changed. In fact, with the new Warhound-sized Knights 2DC is starting to feel too small.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.45 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:56 pm 
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Thinking one more round about this, I've decided not to pursue any special rules for Knight-type formations at this point. I still think Knights on Terminator bases will be unplayable, but maybe that is best solved by people mounting them on smaller bases.

As an experiment, I'm going to try and play Knights strictly according to the rules in the future and we'll see where that leads.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.45 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Well, I don't find the bookkeeping too bad partly because we track DC remaining with small dice that sits next to a damage knight. No dice, no damage. As far as assaults and shooting goes, we do group dice when we roll them to speed things up but other than that, it's RAW.


As for size, the hard cap is 3dc or you end up with an awkward situation where the "size" of a warhound is smaller than a paladin. The Porphyrion only just slips in at 3dc since it's fairly similar in mass to the Warhound. Not sure about what size the dominus knights are, but I suspect the same of them.

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