Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

AMTL Tweaks

 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 8380
Location: Manalapan, FL
I happen to agree that the surcharge is cludgy and should be looked at but for a different reason. Not all weapons are created equal.
JS and DK for instance we're not around long ago when silly things like triple quake cannons and overloaded plasma cannon titans were stalking the battlefield [shudder at the beardiness]. If someone shows up with a triple AML I won't even care, 3 quake cannon reaver's going to have a talking to.

So yeah, indicating on the problematic weapon limitations instead of a blanket surcharge would probably be better but folks it's there for a good reason to stop that crapola.

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Germany/UK
jimmyzimms wrote:
I happen to agree that the surcharge is cludgy and should be looked at but for a different reason. Not all weapons are created equal.
JS and DK for instance we're not around long ago when silly things like triple quake cannons and overloaded plasma cannon titans were stalking the battlefield [shudder at the beardiness]. If someone shows up with a triple AML I won't even care, 3 quake cannon reaver's going to have a talking to.

So yeah, indicating on the problematic weapon limitations instead of a blanket surcharge would probably be better but folks it's there for a good reason to stop that crapola.


you are limited by points build anyway doubt you would have 2 decent titans @ 3k even if the surcharge was removed; as to time playing 25+ years thanks but if you are inferring that on date joined linked with posts then perhaps hi - cool - junkstar on everyone's post would up my count.

triple quake equates to 4+ 5+ under templates - hardly a show stopper. True not all weapons are created equal but you would expect them to be, be it ea uk or net ea


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:19 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Germany/UK
Vaaish wrote:
Quote:
OK you build a SHT Tank Coy using Shadowswords (free cost to have Baneblades upgraded to them) and a Hydra, 10DC 3 Volcano Canons, Commisar, AA Capability, plus bolters - 550points. Also at a stretch this unit can cover 50cm of ground.

Now build a single Warlord with the a comparable setup - 3 volcano - gatling blaster from a scout titan, carapace lasers, single weapon surcharge, vet princep - 950 points


That's not really an accurate comparison on any level really. The titan has 6 shields protecting it before it starts taking any damage at all that recharge and will retain the use of all three volcano cannons right up until it dies. On top of that it has fearless so you don't get any extra benefit from breaking it. Unless the titan has extremely poor rolls or the shadowswords get lucky it's not even a fair matchup.


fine what is the fair matchup then? I used Shadowsword as they are TK D3 - ie negates shields


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:24 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:05 am
Posts: 891
jimmyzimms wrote:
JS and DK for instance we're not around long ago when silly things like triple quake cannons and overloaded plasma cannon titans were stalking the battlefield [shudder at the beardiness]. If someone shows up with a triple AML I won't even care, 3 quake cannon reaver's going to have a talking to.


I was, but I suppose Space Marine/Titan Legions doesn't count for this discussion. ;)

But even then, such triple weapons are curtailed by making them arm/carapace only mountings (which by nature become no more than one or two per chassis), or limiting to a 0-2 option. Particularly when you can reduce the problem weapons to just one per reaver, the carapace limitation seems to me to be a positive solution.

That said, E:A is a game of maneuver and the Titan Legion list lacks precisely that - it has virtually no capacity to maneuver positively. Any competent commander will place objectives properly, then outpace and outflank titans. As we can't really make all Imperial titans faster, a small reduction in chassis costs (25-50 for a Reaver, at least 50 for a Warlord), considering their place as the necessary core of the army (as opposed to a place in support of an already well balanced list), is probably the most likely thing that could be done to make them a positive, competitive and fun force to bring to battle.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:36 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Germany/UK
Doomkitten wrote:
jimmyzimms wrote:
JS and DK for instance we're not around long ago when silly things like triple quake cannons and overloaded plasma cannon titans were stalking the battlefield [shudder at the beardiness]. If someone shows up with a triple AML I won't even care, 3 quake cannon reaver's going to have a talking to.


I was, but I suppose Space Marine/Titan Legions doesn't count for this discussion. ;)

But even then, such triple weapons are curtailed by making them arm/carapace only mountings (which by nature become no more than one or two per chassis), or limiting to a 0-2 option. Particularly when you can reduce the problem weapons to just one per reaver, the carapace limitation seems to me to be a positive solution.

That said, E:A is a game of maneuver and the Titan Legion list lacks precisely that - it has virtually no capacity to maneuver positively. Any competent commander will place objectives properly, then outpace and outflank titans. As we can't really make all Imperial titans faster, a small reduction in chassis costs (25-50 for a Reaver, at least 50 for a Warlord), considering their place as the necessary core of the army (as opposed to a place in support of an already well balanced list), is probably the most likely thing that could be done to make them a positive, competitive and fun force to bring to battle.


Nightgaunts FTW


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1933
Location: South Yorkshire
Quote:

fine what is the fair matchup then? I used Shadowsword as they are TK D3 - ie negates shields


TK does not negate shields.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Germany/UK
dptdexys wrote:
Quote:

fine what is the fair matchup then? I used Shadowsword as they are TK D3 - ie negates shields


TK does not negate shields.


does when its a on a Shadowsword


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Germany/UK
The positioning of obj markers is a trait of the army, has to be placed close to opponents IOT sit a titan between them to claim/contest.

The issue with chassis reduction cost is will it have to be reflected throughout other armies who get TL support?

Personally delving back to adeptus Titanicus a reaver carrying all battle titan weps should incur a 5cm movement penalty.

The introduction of all weps from the collectors area, a reduction in cost to all weps of 25 points(since they dont reflect the ea uk strengths), removal of the single wep surcharge would see more varied builds, sure some will do cheese lists but thats a reflection on the player not the army


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:18 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 8380
Location: Manalapan, FL
Doomkitten wrote:
jimmyzimms wrote:
JS and DK for instance we're not around long ago when silly things like triple quake cannons and overloaded plasma cannon titans were stalking the battlefield [shudder at the beardiness]. If someone shows up with a triple AML I won't even care, 3 quake cannon reaver's going to have a talking to.


I was, but I suppose Space Marine/Titan Legions doesn't count for this discussion. ;)

You know what was meant. No you were not part of the development years ago-Not helping :P

Doomkitten wrote:
But even then, such triple weapons are curtailed by making them arm/carapace only mountings (which by nature become no more than one or two per chassis), or limiting to a 0-2 option.

Aren't we both saying the same thing here? I'm just pointing out there's some problematic weapons from both a fluff perspective and list tailoring perspective that we should be be cognizant with. 9/10 the weapons are fine but there's a few foul combos (Shadowlord's got the math posted) that probably should be curtailed and as you point out, are well handled in those simple restrictions.

Doomkitten wrote:
That said, E:A is a game of maneuver and the Titan Legion list lacks precisely that - it has virtually no capacity to maneuver positively. Any competent commander will place objectives properly, then outpace and outflank titans. As we can't really make all Imperial titans faster, a small reduction in chassis costs (25-50 for a Reaver, at least 50 for a Warlord), considering their place as the necessary core of the army (as opposed to a place in support of an already well balanced list), is probably the most likely thing that could be done to make them a positive, competitive and fun force to bring to battle.


Which is exactly why you're putting lipstick on a pig. A AMTL list, not matter WHAT WE DO, is by it's very nature spectacularly not well suited to the GT scenario and EA's maneuver / activation over all philosophy (I was one of the few that strongly advocated for a VP tweak for the army but that didn't happen). It's never going to have many intricate and detailed tactical approaches intrinsic in the list that are found in others (aka it's very mono-faceted and 99% of the time your basic strategy will be the same as Mard appropriately points out). However it shouldn't be hamstrung either when someone take her out for some fun (also sentinel spam was well dealt with by our illustrious AC so cheers there). I'm totally with you that the list is overly restrictive though and should be lightened up.

Junkstar wrote:
triple quake equates to 4+ 5+ under templates - hardly a show stopper.
Ummm also MW but yeah nice as you do realize there's more than just the shooting in this game, right? What happened was that people would castle up AMTL and park arty titans on the Blitz and cause even worse less maneuver-centric even more boring games back then. Vaaish has had the not enviable job of balancing all that.

Junkstar wrote:
True not all weapons are created equal but you would expect them to be, be it ea uk or net ea

That's asinine. That's why things cost variable points. Fair enough on the EUK bit. Personally I don't really understand why we've not adopted their list instead (just on weight of games played) but that's neither here nor there.

Junkstar wrote:
you are limited by points build anyway doubt you would have 2 decent titans

Actually it spectacularly allowed gamey builds that disenfranchised the entire marine faction when taking an all-comers list. Again, the wider picture here which Vaaish has done a great job of walking a fine line.

Junkstar wrote:
as to time playing 25+ years thanks but if you are inferring that on date joined linked with posts

Wow dude you're so cool. Can we kick it and play twister? ::) Dude you were not playing EA 25 years ago and YES I can absolutely correlate your post history with your engagement in list development. Do you have to take such an adversarial tone and demeanor with everyone, even when they're supporting your positions, albeit for different reasons? Don't be an ass. Kisses. ;)

Junkstar wrote:
The issue with chassis reduction cost is will it have to be reflected throughout other armies who get TL support?

No. Cost is a list factor/consideration. Weapons stats need to be uniform or they need a name adjustment. A great example is the big cost savings on White Scars terminator detachments over Codex as they've got compulsory land raiders.

Junkstar wrote:
removal of the single wep surcharge would see more varied builds, sure some will do cheese lists but thats a reflection on the player not the army
Except it didn't. One of the primary responsibilities of a NetEA AC is exactly to construct lists that stop that abuse.

junkstar wrote:
dptdexys wrote:
Quote:

fine what is the fair matchup then? I used Shadowsword as they are TK D3 - ie negates shields


TK does not negate shields.


does when its a on a Shadowsword

DAFUQ???? :eh

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:26 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1933
Location: South Yorkshire
junkstar wrote:
dptdexys wrote:
Quote:

fine what is the fair matchup then? I used Shadowsword as they are TK D3 - ie negates shields


TK does not negate shields.


does when its a on a Shadowsword


No it does not, can you show me the rules wich state it ignores sields.

here's the FAQ confirming it does not negate shields,
Quote:
Q: If a Titan with Void Shields gets hit by a TK(D3) weapon do you remove 1
Void Shield or D3 Void Shields?
A: D3. The TK shot is a single hit that is assigned to a unit. Once all the hits have been asssigned the results of those hits are resolved. That hit does multiple points of damage so even though it is a single hit it will do D3 points of damage to the unit. In this case the unit has Void shields. So the Void shields will take all D3 points of damage.
If the unit had fewer Void shields than damage the extra damage would carry over into the unit.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Germany/UK
dptdexys wrote:
junkstar wrote:
dptdexys wrote:
Quote:

fine what is the fair matchup then? I used Shadowsword as they are TK D3 - ie negates shields


TK does not negate shields.


does when its a on a Shadowsword


No it does not, can you show me the rules wich state it ignores sields.

here's the FAQ confirming it does not negate shields,
Quote:
Q: If a Titan with Void Shields gets hit by a TK(D3) weapon do you remove 1
Void Shield or D3 Void Shields?
A: D3. The TK shot is a single hit that is assigned to a unit. Once all the hits have been asssigned the results of those hits are resolved. That hit does multiple points of damage so even though it is a single hit it will do D3 points of damage to the unit. In this case the unit has Void shields. So the Void shields will take all D3 points of damage.
If the unit had fewer Void shields than damage the extra damage would carry over into the unit.


Page 41 example of play - no mention of shields as its Macro wep 2+ TK d3 - the Macro bit negates shields - my bad

http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/pdfs/n ... -08-29.pdf


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Germany/UK
The white scar 'codex' reflects that but we are not getting white scar specific units joining steel legion are we as an attachment? its TL hence the concern that chassis costs may or should be reflected down the line to other armies if its introduced


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 8380
Location: Manalapan, FL
I think you're missing the point entirely, mate. I'm just pointing out that costs for unit X in one list do not automatically mean adjustments in another if they're changed. So the base cost of say a Reaver chassis in AMTL can freely be tweaked as needed by Vaaish and doesn't mean a knock on effect to other lists. Each has it's own internal balance to handle so we're very free to experiment here without too much concern elsewhere provided we're not changing weapons definitions present in other list builds. Then we need to tweak the name used here instead (and that's just due to weight of numbers).

Anyways we're really getting down in the weeds and not really discussing the topic anymore

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Germany/UK
jimmyzimms wrote:
I think you're missing the point entirely, mate. I'm just pointing out that costs for unit X in one list do not automatically mean adjustments in another if they're changed. So the base cost of say a Reaver chassis in AMTL can freely be tweaked as needed by Vaaish and doesn't mean a knock on effect to other lists. Each has it's own internal balance to handle so we're very free to experiment here without too much concern elsewhere provided we're not changing weapons definitions present in other list builds. Then we need to tweak the name used here instead (and that's just due to weight of numbers).

Anyways we're really getting down in the weeds and not really discussing the topic anymore


I think your ref to white scars was incorrect, no one gets them as an att, but all Imp get TL as a bolt on if they want to. So you can state hand on heart that if, if the chassis reduction takes place no other armies will be affected by the cost change?

But yes back to topic, if the weps arent equalised over the different 'versions' then surely a point reduction to those that arent on a par with the uk ver seems only fair

Perhaps surcharge reduced cost to 10 points? along with multi lasers?

Chassis' costs - if weps arent fudged so over the spectrum there is parity then surely the chassis costs will 'fracture' the lists more? Still looking @ overall costs coupled with trying to squeeze extra titans in heres some food for thought

Present: Proposed?

Emperor 1250 1100
Warlord 825 760
Reaver 650 600
WH 275 220
WH Pack 500 440


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 8380
Location: Manalapan, FL
As the faction AC I can absolutely unequivocally state that's the case. :) I really cannot understand why you're debating that units can cost different amounts in different lists based on their theme and internal balance as I've already demonstrably shown it so in the Whitescars example.

From your comments I think you don't actually understand how lists the work in EA. You don't "ALLY" across lists like you do in some other games. A list may have a grouping called "ALLIES" but it's nothing more than a title choice for a grouping (in the same way you may have a section called "CORE" or "UPGRADES"). I could call it "JUNKSTAR'S FAVORITES" just as easily and wouldn't have any effect on the game. It's just a title.

We tend to use the same titles as exampled in the original lists in the initial EA book whenever possible for consistency but it's not an inclusion of "things" from other lists. Each list is free to cost things and size formations and whatnot as needed.

If you need more examples:
Codex Thunderbolts: 175, Barran Thunderbolts: 150
Codex Warlord: 825, Iron Hands Warlord: 850 (has better weapon in that build)
Steel Legion Warhound: 275, Space Wolves Warhound: INFINITY as not allowed :)

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net