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AMTL Tweaks

 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:08 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
By the way, since we are being pedantic, if I roll a 3 on a D3 I really do get a 3. Because a D3 is a 3 sided dice.

If on the other hand I roll a 3 on a D6 proxying for a D3... But of course there are many alternative ways of proxying for a D3, like a D12.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:01 pm 
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@ Vaaish - hear what you are saying, and understand this was a pig to get approved, but i must admit the initiative suggestion was last on my list for a reason - its the least fun imho.

Sure no one wants to see their titan die to a BM or failed assault (due to lack of fearless) but they are both the result of proactive actions by the opponent - getting shields down and braking the titan is already a hard job.

On the other hand failing an activation /rally in a 6/7 activation army is a bummer, especially if its that tooled up 1000 pnt warlord who ends up plodding up the table with no chance to fire due to a poor dice roll (cos who would give a WL a free shot from where it is standing.)

Atm, playing against titans with an assault army (marines) is a game of cat and mouse - you cant really hurt them you just end up running circles around them. You need an average of 32 hits in CC to down a warlord - with your best CC unit dealing an average of maybe 6 hits (inc a few MW) there is just no point in attacking.

It just makes 1 dimensional games - for you and your opponent - and making the activation rolls harder may just make it feel like the winner is decided by the dice.

Likewise, void shields are a bit of a fun killer for opponents.

Sure, fearless and full VSs shouldn't be cut out - it'd be a no brainer on your bts warlord - but it gives list building options and a few potential weaknesses for your opponent to target.






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 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:30 pm 
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To throw a slight curveball at this. I'd say currently getting AMTL right, or at least more competitive could be a great move with Grandma Wendy's new Titan game launch coming in.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:59 pm 
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Forgot to say yesterday : Fearless and shields are also "fixed" effects which can be predicted / pointed more easily. Whereas the increased chance of failing activations can only be rated statistically. With so few "large" activations the effect of a run of good or bad activation rolls could significantly swing games.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:32 pm 
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I've been looking into what you can get for min-maxed titans to see how the chassis change would affect them. I'm curious if anyone out there has tried 5x reavers armed only with free weapons. Generally pretty crappy firepower, but that's a lot of reavers and could be enough to saturate objectives.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:55 am 
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Odd thought, but what about radically cutting the chassis price and really raising up the weapon costs? Just a thought. I don't mind the idea of 'crappy' 500 point Reavers.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:19 am 
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Eh, not really too fond of that. Just seems like six of one half dozen of another but doing it in a way that could potentially send the list back to square one to sort out all the weapons prices. I feel that the weapons are pointed pretty well for their stats as they are so I think we'd be better off tweaking the chassis a bit instead of something that drastic.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:58 am 
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Fair enough. Another possibly radical thought then - three (four?) costs for each weapon, each based upon just how silly taking multiples are. Three laser blasters or AMLs might be linear in price, but three quake cannons? It might not need much tweaking of actual weapon costs, but allows 'weapon surcharges' to be applied on a per-weapon basis with much more precision than currently. That, plus a moderate chassis price drop might help an extra unit or two take the field, just as you mention with your five reaver example.

Obviously, just spitballing, and please do feel free to yell 'I've had enough, you dumb doomer' if it's entirely ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:22 am 
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Vaaish wrote:
I've been looking into what you can get for min-maxed titans to see how the chassis change would affect them. I'm curious if anyone out there has tried 5x reavers armed only with free weapons. Generally pretty crappy firepower, but that's a lot of reavers and could be enough to saturate objectives.

Both TRC and I tried separate tests many years ago when you could take only body hulls and we both agreed that the games were both silly and unbalanced (to the titans).

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:01 pm 
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Tim, how may were you guys fielding. From what i can see regardless of a 25 point drop in the Reaver hull you can still take 5x of them as it is.

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 Post subject: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:11 pm 
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As a humble, mostly-lurking observer who's interested in titans and game design (and who wouldn't be! :P), I think @Blip is right about the difficulties with titans in a game like Epic Armageddon. Anything that is hard to kill and doesn't degrade with damage, plus has nasty weapons, will be very difficult to balance. Large point values are more easily balanced because you have more granular effects from taking out individual titans (and so large, titan-focussed battles probably do quite well, especially with less models to take care of!).

EA also has the aforementioned issue that the number of units is both critical for wining games and for making games interesting; individual units are just not complex enough to make smaller (number of formations-wise) battles interesting (unlike previous versions of titan rules or, say, Battlefleet Gothic).

Since you don't get many titans in other lists, these unbalancing effects are pretty small for most armies but I think if EA had continued with support, GW would have revised multi-damage capacity unit rules to give those units more detail and micromanagement or, at the very least, granular damage results. Both as much as I'd like it and as much as it might improve the game, I think revising titan rules like this is a very big task since it should be applied to all titans throughout the game.

So, that leaves small changes! I actually quite like that plasma generator rule, @Vaaish! Though I've never quite been able to get a DC-linked generator system to work out for the existing superheavies and their weapons (and, potentially, movement speed, repairs, and shield charging). Perhaps replacing the initiative system for titans only with a generator system would do it? Instead of passing initiative tests for orders, you'd use plasma generator points to do those orders (more power to legs but none left for shooting ~= March, for example). This would stop you from having your giant point-sink fail initiative tests and flounder around, too, whilst mitigating their abilities in a similar way to activation.

Perhaps the easier option is removing the automatic Fearless. I would propose instead that they get a new rule that allows suppression by blast markers but none of the other penalties of non-Fearless units (so no Breaking and automatic damage from shooting; but not sure about other penalties to initiative). Using blast markers to represent superficial damage that gets repaired lets you wear down the effectiveness of titans by taking positive action against them and is easy to implement. You could use some justification about veteran Princeps being sent with ally-titans as suggested earlier to make up for the discrepancy if there were no game-wise changes.

Anyways, these are just food for thought, and maybe something interesting to try out in friendly games! I apologise for the large amount of text but my dream of an integrated infantry-vehicle-interesting titan game just won't die! :P Well done to Vaaish and everyone else who's contributed to the AMTL list as it stands, too, it's made for interesting reading and it's a testament to the skill required to address a very challenging limitation of the core rules without changing anything fundamental.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:22 pm 
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So, that leaves small changes! I actually quite like that plasma generator rule, @Vaaish!


so there's two of us! Woot! :}

Some of the changes you mention about activation. Your BM idea sounds similar to the existing automaton rule we have on the robots. Not truly fearless, but still provides benefits over lesser units. For the moment though, lets see how the current round of proposed changes fare before we look into anything more drastic.

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 Post subject: AMTL Tweaks
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:48 am 
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Indeed! We need to stick together with our radical titan tweaks! :P

I agree about keeping things on the same track for the official list in the meantime—like I was saying before, I think the real issue is about the core rules rather than this particular list, and getting the existing framework to work well will be the most popular option in the community, I think.

So, to avoid cluttering up this thread with all the enthusiasm for making more interesting titan rules, I shall make a new thread! And then post the link here in a stylish fashion, once I get time to actually make it :P

Edit: And now, for the stylish link! http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/viewtopic.php?t=31860


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