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Thoughts on the future of AMTL

 Post subject: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:02 am 
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I wanted to put out a few thoughts on the AMTL list I've been mulling for a while now. For now this will remain secondary to the current list but they still help show what I see as an ideal Titan list.

Titans are very good at clearing, contesting, or breaking through enemy forces but they aren't really all that great at purely holding territory. I'd like to see a shift to a more mobile, destructive titan force that focuses more on killing than holding. In other words, a force of titans that spearheads across the table scything through enemy formations while smaller stuff holds objectives. To do that there's some stuff that has to change with the current list. Here's my thoughts:

1. Scout and Battle Titan formations cannot contest or capture objectives. Lesser formations may capture objectives for Titan armies as normal. The idea is to promote movement and destruction of enemy units holding objectives rather than sitting on them. I realize this is a bit of a departure, but I'd like to see titan formations focused on killing and breaking the enemy while other formations clean up and hold or contest objectives.

2. Killing power. Titans really just aren't that fearsome. Mostly they just don't have the same threat capability similarly priced units have partly from being a single unit rather than multiple. This is despite their ability to maintain full firepower until they die.

I'd like to see this tested:

Apoc Launcher: 3bp Disrupt, 25 points
Gatling Blaster: 6x shots, 25 points
Plasma Cannon: 4x shots, 25 points
Melta Cannon: 45 or 60cm to closer match apoc stats for it
Laser Blaster: 8x shots, 50 points
Plasma Destructor: 6x shots, 75 points.

Generally keeping scout weapons the same while boosting the power of the plasma family and a few others.

3. Introduce a degradation mechanism to titan formations. If we boost Battle Titan firepower so that they can either severely damage a formation out in the open or break it in a turn of shooting, there needs to be a method of allowing players that can't easily kill a titan outright to have some chance against them. This might take the form of "crippling" a titan below half of their hitpoints or the plasma gen idea we discussed earlier.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:11 am 
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I like the idea, but it's a pretty significant change. Could you simply call this the Stygies AMTL list or something?

With a change this significant, it might be worth re-thinking the entire approach to the Adeptus. Currently, we have three parallel lists that are all pretty restrictive. Meanwhile, there's lists like the Steel Legion, which is enormously flexible and has many possible army concepts. You can easily adapt it to represent all kinds of IG units, and yet for all that it has a consistent feel to it.

I'd love for an Adeptus Mechanicus list that gives us that kind of flexibility. Where one guy can focus on Ordinatus Minorises and another can do infantry and another can focus on Titans, and still another a balanced list of all of it. I think a lot of the feel of a list comes not from its unit names or restrictions but the doctrine that drives every other decisions that's available.

Anyway, food for thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:38 am 
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Wow, Battle and Scout titans not claiming or contesting objectives. That might be a step too far, however I'd have to take it as a whole with the other ideas and it might work.

My thoughts have always been that a Titan list should not be overly diluted by other units.

Up-gunning the Titan weapons is a good idea though.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:10 am 
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I agree about up-gunning them. Not claiming objectives seems really, really weird and will just promote more turn 4 points victories. Something yourself have been complaining about.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:32 pm 
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Quote:
I agree about up-gunning them. Not claiming objectives seems really, really weird and will just promote more turn 4 points victories. Something yourself have been complaining about.


Alone, yes it will. With the other changes the titans role becomes that of formation breaker or destroyer. The goal is that fresh scout and battle titans are well able to clear an enemy formation entirely or make it combat ineffective allowing smaller units like Skitarii, Sentinels, or Forge Knights to claim or contest objectives.

What we want to avoid is a titan running over the centerline, planting between two objectives or starting on the blitz and doing little else the rest of the game. Make the titans have powerful weapons, degrade artillery, and prevent them from capturing and contesting objectives and perhaps we'll see titans armies moving around the table more.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:35 pm 
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Quote:
Wow, Battle and Scout titans not claiming or contesting objectives. That might be a step too far, however I'd have to take it as a whole with the other ideas and it might work.


Well they already have difficulty locking down objectives so that's not much of a change. Being unable to contest means there is less reason to stop moving. The goal is making AMTL less static and one dimensional.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:41 pm 
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Just a thought, allow Battle Titans to take the Blitz if not other objectives.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:01 pm 
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I like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:40 pm 
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I like this thread. Any discussion should be clear this is a totally alternative amtl list for pure R&D so name change is a good idea.

If battle titans can claim blitz objective can we think of something for scout?

I like that titans are going to not need to simply squat on an objective while the opponent scuttles around avoiding them. Titans go out and wreck stuff, period. However if we're not careful then all it means is brittle infantry and supporting formations they have to take going to get picked off.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:48 pm 
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One thing I've always wanted to see is a reason for Titans to bring infantry. Really like the idea that they can claim the Blitz, but not other objectives. Makes them a proper armored spearhead, and gives a reason for dragging along the Tech Guard. First titan legion I've wanted to play.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:51 pm 
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If you do this you should publish an alternative scenario to titan spearheads

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:35 pm 
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Quote:
If battle titans can claim blitz objective can we think of something for scout?


We could let scout titans contest objectives. Help show their disruptive effect on enemy positions.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:48 pm 
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word that. I'm with you on this: It finally sounds like a titan list I'd want to play

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:54 pm 
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Ok. So tentatively here's what we have:

List Structure: Identical to AMTL 3.2 but possibly add allies to allow for Skitarii, sagitarii and some cataphractii units.

Units: Possibly swap out Thunderbolts for Avengers and Sentinels for Crusaders.

Weapons: Upgun battle titan weapons

Special Rules: God Machines expands. Battle Titans may only contest or capture the blitz objective. Scout titans may only contest objectives. Add some rule to allow the degradation of a titan over time similar to the the plasma generation rules we've been discussing.


Goal: Avoid static and one dimensional titan play style. Focus on mobile, Battle Titans with heavy firepower spearheading through enemy units supported by limited numbers of lesser units to claim objectives.


Next question: how much firepower should a titan put out? If what we have now isn't enough, is a 1/4 to 1/3 increase too good or not enough? We want Titans to be scary to face head on and especially out of cover but we don't want folks to feel they have no chance against them. Weaker AA helps people add BM without taking return fire and cover can help mitigate Titan shooting.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the future of AMTL
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:09 pm 
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Hmm, this sounds nice. But if those changes would be in effect it should be possible to take 2 Support Formations for one Titan formation. Otherwise you struggle between T-Bolts and Skitarii/Sentinels/Knights. And this will be to much due to bad AA overall.


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