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Questoris Mechanicus v1.57 (Developmental)

 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.52 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:24 pm 
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That's how I interpret it anyway: "Its Ironstorm Missile Pod has a substantially larger payload than those found on more common Knights, though in battle-zones where the danger from airborne assault is apparent, this system can be replaced with powerful Helios Defence Missiles."

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.52 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:27 pm 
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I don't think that the rules support that interpretation though. I think what they are saying is that the Ironstorm missiles do more damage but the Helios missiles can also target air. The rules also seem to support this interpretation:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/ ... yhrion.pdf

60" 8 2 Heavy 2, Skyfire, Interceptor for Helios vs.
Ironstorm missile pod 72" 6 4 Ordnance 1, Massive Blast (7") for Ironstorm

IIRC, Skyfire says you get full BS against flyers and skimmers, but only snap shots against anything else including ground units unless the weapon has interceptor. Interceptor lets you negate the snap shot penalty against ground targets.

I think EAU blended the two options together to get the BP and AA values, so maybe if you're against that think about adding an AP value to the Helios missies too?

Maybe something like
Magna cannons XXX
2x autocannons 5+ap/6+at
Helios : 6+at/5+ AP & AA

so 4x 6+at and 2x AT2+ lance per knight

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.52 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Yeah that sounds reasonable

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:46 pm 
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updated to v1.83

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Cerastus Lancers incoming! Hopefully the rest will follow.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Ha I almost posted that here too. It bodes well that the AT line will easily fit to people's modeling needs to help support this very cool list!

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Not that I need any more of these :) BTW Where do you feel this list is at right now? It seems like it's fairly solid, but I'm still not sure about some of the allies and crippling damage on titans.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:32 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
Not that I need any more of these :) BTW Where do you feel this list is at right now? It seems like it's fairly solid, but I'm still not sure about some of the allies and crippling damage on titans.


I'm quite happy with the Knights-part of the list, even tho I haven't been able to test everything yet. Norto wasn't completely happy with them taking only half damage when losing engages, so that part might be too much considering everything else they have. On the other hand my consistent experience with both NetEA Knights and E-UK Knights has been that they tend to be extremely vulnerable to clipping engages, something I think will only become a bigger issue when people start playing with the huge A-T Knights... (tho my experience has been that it's less of an issue when you base them on oval bases like Knights in 40k) So might need more playtest on that before I decide if it stays or not.

I think the Skitarii part of the Allies section is OK, but I don't really have a strong opinion about it. I'm quite happy with the point values on the Thunderbolt and Maruder (as I think they're a lot closer to what they should be). The weapon options on the Reaver and the Warlord are OK as well, but don't really have a strong opinion on those either.

Completely agree on the Titan rules. Right now I'm leaning towards trying out the rules below in both the QM list and in TTL. I really liked the feel of the Split Fire rule when combined with a Warlord, as I think it made them feel a lot more interesting than they usually do, and really gives the player a reason to consider these big WE. Don't really think Reavers need fixing, they're alright as they are, so I've restricted the rules to DC8 or above.

9. Towering Incarnations of Chaos (TTL) / the Machine Spirit (QM) (Experimental Playtest Version)
Whenever a Traitor Titan Legion / Questoris Mechanicus War Engine with 8 or more DC is destroyed, all other friendly formations recieve d3+1 Blast Markers.

(The idea behind this rule is that it gives the opponent a very real reason to go after bigger WE. Not only might you bag the BTS, but you also disrupt everything else)

10. Split Fire (Experimental Playtest Version)
War Engines with a starting Damage Capacity of 8 or more may try to Split Fire when attempting to perform a Sustain Fire action. Split Fire gives an additional -1 on the activation roll. If successful, the WE may fire at up to two enemy formations.
May not target more than one formation per individual weapon. No +1 to-hit modifier from performing a Sustain Fire.

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:34 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Ha I almost posted that here too. It bodes well that the AT line will easily fit to people's modeling needs to help support this very cool list!


Thanks! Yeah I figured GW would release a lot more than just the basic Imperial Knights. We'll see what else they end up releasing... The Armiger Knights might be too small for example. But they might be fairly easy to proxy.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Quote:
half damage when losing engages


I think this is a good goal in a broad sense. Knights are really unstable in their durability. Sometimes you can't kill them with anything and other times they just evaporate. I think it's appropriate that folks shouldn't be penalized for using knights to assault. As an alternative to halving the hits, what about just allowing the knights to attempt to save them using armor values?

Quote:
I think the Skitarii part of the Allies section is OK

Dunno. I kind of feel that with all the knight options there's not as much need for the allied options. Fluffy to some degree for sure, but maybe a bit more limited? Just access to Reavers and warlords and skitarii?

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9. Towering Incarnations of Chaos (TTL) / the Machine Spirit (QM) (Experimental Playtest Version)
Whenever a Traitor Titan Legion / Questoris Mechanicus War Engine with 8 or more DC is destroyed, all other friendly formations recieve d3+1 Blast Markers


This is effectively God Machines from ATML with more BM. From testing that rule, it doesn't really drive folks to take out the big titans but does provide a bit of incentive and benefit for targeting the smaller ones. I thnk by limiting it to Warlords and up you're not going to see the rule come into play because generally the lists that get the biggest benefit are also the same lists that have less ability to take down the big titans. We also settled on one BM added because getting multiples ended up really crippling AMTL lists.

EDIT: I think before I could support the list for approved, I'd want the crippling damage and split fire rules listed as optional. They are pretty big changes to the meta and it would probably be better than including them directly.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:35 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
I think this is a good goal in a broad sense. Knights are really unstable in their durability. Sometimes you can't kill them with anything and other times they just evaporate. I think it's appropriate that folks shouldn't be penalized for using knights to assault. As an alternative to halving the hits, what about just allowing the knights to attempt to save them using armor values?


I think the halving hits mechanic is better as people are used to it from Space Marines. Armour would be more random, and is a novel mechanic.

Quote:
Dunno. I kind of feel that with all the knight options there's not as much need for the allied options. Fluffy to some degree for sure, but maybe a bit more limited? Just access to Reavers and warlords and skitarii?


I'd rather remove the Skitarii completely than remove the Imperial Navy. I think the Allies section is OK right now, but the Reaver / Warlord loadout might need some tweaking.

Quote:
This is effectively God Machines from ATML with more BM. From testing that rule, it doesn't really drive folks to take out the big titans but does provide a bit of incentive and benefit for targeting the smaller ones. I thnk by limiting it to Warlords and up you're not going to see the rule come into play because generally the lists that get the biggest benefit are also the same lists that have less ability to take down the big titans. We also settled on one BM added because getting multiples ended up really crippling AMTL lists.


Yes it's the God Machines rule, except it isn't restricted to what can see them / has weapon arcs to them (which I've found gets confusing and can be gamed quite a lot), packs a greater punch and is restricted to just the biggest WE. If I were you I'd consider changing it in AMTL as well.

Quote:
EDIT: I think before I could support the list for approved, I'd want the crippling damage and split fire rules listed as optional. They are pretty big changes to the meta and it would probably be better than including them directly.


I'm removing the Crippling Damage rule completely, and replacing it with the "Towering Incarnations..." rule instead. The Split Fire rule is still experimental, but I think it could do with some more playtesting in QM, AMTL and TTL. I'm not going to include it as experimental as it obviously will impact the cost of the Warlord. If you're not interested in trying it out in AMTL I might just restrict it to TTL, but then I might also remove the Warlord from QM as I think it doesn't really add much to the list without something like Split Fire... I'd consider replacing it with a Space Ship instead, as that might be something people will actually take.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:44 pm 
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Quote:
I'd rather remove the Skitarii completely than remove the Imperial Navy. I think the Allies section is OK right now, but the Reaver / Warlord loadout might need some tweaking.


Oh sorry, fogot about navy. Yeah, keep tbolts and marauders.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:03 pm 
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Quote:
Yes it's the God Machines rule, except it isn't restricted to what can see them / has weapon arcs to them (which I've found gets confusing and can be gamed quite a lot), packs a greater punch and is restricted to just the biggest WE. If I were you I'd consider changing it in AMTL as well.


Generally I play it that if you can get down to the level of the destroyed titan and can see any part of another formation, that formation gets the BM. It's never supposed to be dependent on arcs. I guess we could just drop the Lof requirement. I'm also not keen to change to the way you've got it as it's the inverse of what the intended use of the rule is. The goal was to reward armies that might only be able to take out smaller titans by making it easier to break or delay larger titans and smaller formations in the AMTL list. It's limited to one BM because more than that can just wreck the titan force entirely. We don't want folks to kill one warhound and break half of the army.

Quote:
If you're not interested in trying it out in AMTL


Yeah, I'm not planning or even thinking of adding split fire to AMTL. I'm firmly of the opinion that it's outside the intended functioning of EA and should be left alone.

Limiting it to just warlords and up only gives benefit to armies that can already take out a warlord while other armies get no benefit from the rule at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:15 pm 
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Good to know how you're thinking. I'm of a different opinion on both of these special rules, but I accept you have different ideas for AMTL. Given that any competitive AMTL army has a hard time including Warlords and Imperators, it might be useful to consider how that could be changed?

In any case it might be good to have some contrast between Traitor Titans and Loyalist ones.

Now pretty sure I'll remove the Warlord from QM and replace it with a standard Space Ship as that will actually open up some strategic opportunities. The standard Warlord just doesn't really add anything to the list. I'll probably replace the special Reaver with a standard one as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.53 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Quote:
Given that any competitive AMTL army has a hard time including Warlords and Imperators, it might be useful to consider how that could be changed?


I don't believe that the current AMTL list can progress much farther. That's something I've said for quite some time now and it's due to titans not being able to field enough firepower for their points to counter higher activation counts. I'd originally thought to boost the overall firepower of titan lists, but that was hit with a lot of backlash. Because of that I started toying with Plasma Generation as a way to allow titans to have appropriate firepower but still give armies a chance to whittle them down.

My end goal would be a titan list that gives titan players more thoughtful play than what we have now without making titans feel weak while still having a list that people can play against without needing to completely destroy the larger titans.

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