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Questoris Mechanicus v1.56 (Developmental)

 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.0 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:54 pm 
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EDIT: I see you updated it, not really fond of the Relic changes.


Anything in particular? I think they should be rare, but maybe 0-1 is too limiting. But I'll probably keep the Acastus Knights as a ride for the Senechals and Barons.

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'd also think about calling it a Banner rather than Lance since that seems to be the going term these days.


Yeah I see that's what they call the Adeptus Titanicus Knight units. Fwiw in 40k they call them lances. But might be worth considering.

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I'd also shy away from adding robots to the list since it would be rather unlikely even a group closely aligned with Admech would get access to them.


I think they add a lot to the theme, and gives the list another type of garrison that's not over the top. But if you have a better idea I'm all ears.

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I might suggest using the same integration the Skitarii list is using with AMTL and eventually Knights and Cataphractii.


I thought about doing that, and I tried it out. It's really cool to have all that choice, but I just got the feeling that the variety got out of control when you add free access to all AMTL weaponry to a list with tons of choice already. That's asking the opponent of your list too understand too many new units at once, and ultimately this is a Knight List and not a AMTL list. There's also the issue that you refer to a list that's not in the same document, which very quickly becomes unwieldy. If I went that route I'd have to copy everything into this list as well. I appreciate you want to keep everything under once roof (I've done it with TTL after all) but I'm not so sure that's going to work with the modern Knights.

It's probably better to have AMTL integration in a separate list. House Cadmus was allied to the War Griffons earlier before the War Griffons became Tyranid food (not that we care all that much about current fluff but still), so they might be a good option for a list that goes together with the current AMTL.

Speaking of which, whats your opinion on the Crippling Damage rule? I've only tried it out twice with the Traitor Titan Legion, and can't say it had a lot of impact on those battles, but I think it makes the bigger titans feel a lot more fragile.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.1 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:42 pm 
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Post updated to v1.1

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.1 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:59 pm 
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Anything in particular? I think they should be rare, but maybe 0-1 is too limiting. But I'll probably keep the Acastus Knights as a ride for the Senechals and Barons.


I think 0-1 is a bit too restrictive. There's rare and why bother getting a model and I'm not certain that past cool factor other options might just be better to take. I'm also not fond of having the Porphyrions as a mixed relic lance. I'd rather see them as a separate option.

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I think they add a lot to the theme, and gives the list another type of garrison that's not over the top. But if you have a better idea I'm all ears.


TBH, Generic sentinels or something similar to the base Knightworld list might be best.

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I thought about doing that, and I tried it out...

oh, I didn't mean access to the whole list. I generally limit it to the core options for the list so that the more specialized parts are still only accessible to owning list. So, for example, Titan support lets skitarii take any of the titans but none of the support and skitarii allies would grant just the demi-century and sagitarii plus upgrades but none of the ordinatus companies or support units.

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It's probably better to have AMTL integration in a separate list.

Yeah, house cadmus is what I painted up my knights as to match up with the war griphons and Gtyphonne IV. THe end goal is to allow all of the core admech lists to have a degree of flexibility for what can be fielded to that's still a bit limited ATM. Eventuallly I'd like to have knight and skitarii as allies to AMTL, Knight, Titan, and Cataphractii as allies for SKitarii, and Skitarii and Titan as allies for Cataphractiii.

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Speaking of which, whats your opinion on the Crippling Damage rule?


It's not too dissimilar from things I've looked into in the past for AMTL based on the BFG rule but it seemed a bit wordy. I sighed a bit when I saw it and skipped over it a few times before actually reading it. :) I think it has a bit of a dramatic effect on titan costings though especially with the extra damage. I'd just go with the BFG route. if you drop below 50% HP (slightchage)you half speed, shields, and count remaining DC for the purposes of FF/CC attacks and unit size. Still I think that's a bit harsh for the big titans.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.1 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:31 pm 
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I think 0-1 is a bit too restrictive. There's rare and why bother getting a model and I'm not certain that past cool factor other options might just be better to take. I'm also not fond of having the Porphyrions as a mixed relic lance. I'd rather see them as a separate option.


Yeah, Porphyrions might do better as a separate Lance. As is, they're the only competent AA in the list, and they slow down the units they're in. On the other hand, they're quite easy to single out when they're going around on their own. Not sure if you noticed tho, but you can also take them with the Nobles?

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TBH, Generic sentinels or something similar to the base Knightworld list might be best.


I've been against including Sentinels but perhaps they work with the theme. They'd be a great way to up activations which right now are kind of low.

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oh, I didn't mean access to the whole list. I generally limit it to the core options for the list so that the more specialized parts are still only accessible to owning list. So, for example, Titan support lets skitarii take any of the titans but none of the support and skitarii allies would grant just the demi-century and sagitarii plus upgrades but none of the ordinatus companies or support units.


No I didn't mean that either, just the Titans. But even that might be too much choice. Partly because I find it kind of awkward to flip between two documents, both when constructing armies and while playing, and partly because I struggle to keep things straight just among the all the Knight variants. Having the Titans being the usual ones helps to reduce information overload.

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Yeah, house cadmus is what I painted up my knights as to match up with the war griphons and Gtyphonne IV. THe end goal is to allow all of the core admech lists to have a degree of flexibility for what can be fielded to that's still a bit limited ATM. Eventuallly I'd like to have knight and skitarii as allies to AMTL, Knight, Titan, and Cataphractii as allies for SKitarii, and Skitarii and Titan as allies for Cataphractiii.


Well as long as you don't go overboard with the number of variants you include it I think it could work.

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It's not too dissimilar from things I've looked into in the past for AMTL based on the BFG rule but it seemed a bit wordy. I sighed a bit when I saw it and skipped over it a few times before actually reading it. :) I think it has a bit of a dramatic effect on titan costings though especially with the extra damage. I'd just go with the BFG route. if you drop below 50% HP (slightchage)you half speed, shields, and count remaining DC for the purposes of FF/CC attacks and unit size. Still I think that's a bit harsh for the big titans.


I tend to write wordy rules as I don't want there to be any ambiguity about what the rule actually says. And that's not too far from the Crippling Damage rule, though I've also considered halving the available shields. The BFG-rule would also pretty much immobilize WE with 15cm move, which seems excessive.

But I definitely think something is needed to give an incentive to engage and try to kill the big titans. As is, unless you've got something that can take out titans you're much better off ignoring it. Also, making the titans cheaper makes it possible to take more of them, and makes it possible to actually field armies that are not completely unbalanced by including them.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.1 (experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:56 am 
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I did miss that, but that seems a bit weird. I see the Porphyrions as your support guys akin to the Custodians in the Knightworld list. They make sense as a relic knight formation, not so much as an upgrade to a lance. By the same token, I assumed that Crusader config here served as your primary AA. Not necessarily to kill things as much as to deter assaults.

Crippled: honestly I don't think it would do anything to encourage attacking the titans. Most armies can handle a Reaver anyway even if they don't have ideal weapons and it doesn't make a warlord any easier to take down so you'd still be better off ignoring it for other things.

On House Cadmus, I see them as basically the Knightworld list Dave put together as that's the main Knight list. I'd kind of like to see the Castigator in there as well but that's another discussion. :)

One last note., why limit the Cerastus knights to 3. Three strong Knights are a bit squishy.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.1 (experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:14 am 
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One last note., why limit the Cerastus knights to 3. Three strong Knights are a bit squishy.


It's because of the Cerastrus Acherons. Their Flame Cannon becomes ridiculous once you go beyond 3 Knights. And I think it kind of works with them being Scouts and staying ahead of the main force. I could nerf the Flame Cannon to 1 BP of course, but then they would be pretty meaningless.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.1 (experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:18 am 
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Why not just give an upgrade cost for them then?

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.1 (experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:34 am 
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Very hard to cost them properly when they can deliver 3 templates with IC. At 6 BP it's OK and not terribly OP, but at 8 and upwards things just run away.

I also thinks being capped at 3 makes the Cerastrus Lances a bit different from the Noble Lances, they get a bit more personality.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.2 (experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:52 am 
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Post updated to v1.2! Hopefully the last one for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.2 (experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:24 am 
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I think structure wise this looks pretty good now. but I suspect you'll need to point some of the upgrades like Errants which are 10 points more in the base list.

I think Porphyrion is misspelled in the datasheet section.

I'm still not sold on the crippled rule. I don't think it'll come into play much and the titans aren't really pointed to account for it.

Last of all, think about testing the list with the crit effect being the loss of the Knight Shield rather than the unit is destroyed. Knights aren't fearless and they tend to get pretty squishy. I've always felt the cirt instakill is a bit much on them.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.2 (experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:37 am 
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Vaaish wrote:
I think structure wise this looks pretty good now.


Good to hear!

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but I suspect you'll need to point some of the upgrades like Errants which are 10 points more in the base list.


Well I will try to avoid small increments like that in the list. And I've always found Errants to be quite situational. They've also lost the Shock Lance in this list.

Quote:
I think Porphyrion is misspelled in the datasheet section.


Fixed.

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I'm still not sold on the crippled rule. I don't think it'll come into play much and the titans aren't really pointed to account for it.
Well we'll have to try it out somewhere. And I'm open for making it even more brutal if it would make Titans cheaper and more likely to actually be fielded. Epic is supposed to be about the Big Stuff. War Engine lists are kind of weird right now, and I think making the big titans cheaper and more fragile is the way to go.

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Last of all, think about testing the list with the crit effect being the loss of the Knight Shield rather than the unit is destroyed. Knights aren't fearless and they tend to get pretty squishy. I've always felt the cirt instakill is a bit much on them.
Keeping track of that would be a real hazzle... I agree the instakill is harsh, but Knights also has a lot of rules that work in their favour, like the fact that you can allocate two hits to a model with only one DC remaining.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.25 (experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:32 pm 
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By all means go ahead and test the crippled rule, I'm just not sold on it being effective.

Tracking things gets brought up from time to time as too much overhead. It happened when knights went from single hits to WE with two but it's not too bad. Tracking the shields wouldn't be much different, I think. Just give them a different chit or different colored die to mark which ones don't have a shield.

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.3 (experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:17 pm 
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Post updated

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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.3 (experimental)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:50 pm 
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I just independently threw together some Armiger stats for a list and then saw you had some too. My interpretation is pretty similar though I think they should have a MW4+ attack - the stats for the Thermal Spear are identical to a Multi-Melta accept it has D3 shots rather than 1. Taking an average of 2 that would effectively make it the equivalent of a twin Multi-melta which is 15cm MW4+ in epic.

Armigers should also definitely have scout given their background! Why have you got Sentinels in the list? That's heavily inappropriate and un-thematic as an IG unit and Armigers as scouts covers the scout needs of the list perfectly well.

Also the Icarus Autocannon is a twin autocannon so should be 30cm AP4+/AT5+. Personally I'd give it AA5+ too, as it's limited enough by the low range already and it seems reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.3 (experimental)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:50 pm 
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GlynG is correct. We actually already have the Icarus autocannon in a basically ready for ERC approval chaos list (inappropriately titled Stalker autocannon but that's a fluff typo) . Use the existing stats as he outlines above.

edit: actually the Icarus autocannon has stats in an approved list. You need to use those.

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