Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

How does AMTL 3.24 perform in your group?
Poll ended at Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:35 am
Over Powered. The Titans can't lose! 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
Just about right. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. 33%  33%  [ 3 ]
Underpowered. Flawless dice and perfect play can't muster a win. 33%  33%  [ 3 ]
Other. Just a tweak or two... 22%  22%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 9

AMTL Power Level Poll

 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:26 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 3918
Location: Greenville, SC
Mark, I agree with you the firepower is underwhelming but people just don't like playing against titans with appropriate firepower. A single titan wiping out an undamaged enemy battle formation with one round of shooting just isn't palatable for most folks. I think the answer lies in what we can do to make the list more viable without changing the weapons.

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:06 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5336
Location: London, UK
I didn't vote as I don't play this list.
FWIW in UK tournaments it has ~even win/loss/draw stats from 84 games suggesting that the E-UK list is probably OK, and by inference the NETEA list ought to be reasonable as well.

And I totally agree that boosting the Titan firepower is unwarranted for the reasons cited.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:17 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:39 am
Posts: 1018
Location: Alleroed, Denmark
Ginger wrote:
I didn't vote as I don't play this list.
FWIW in UK tournaments it has ~even win/loss/draw stats from 84 games suggesting that the E-UK list is probably OK, and by inference the NETEA list ought to be reasonable as well.

And I totally agree that boosting the Titan firepower is unwarranted for the reasons cited.


The EpicUK titans outguns the NetEA titans by a significant amount, on almost all weapons. This is explicitly the intention of the EpicUK version:
"... To facilitate this, make the list more aggressive and bring in more of the feel of a titan legion going to war the radical option of changing the weapon stats was introduced. With the up-gunning of the weapons a titan suddenly came into its own. ... "
"This change has meant that a titan can now wipe out an enemy formation in a single activation. Which has
resulted in more fun, if bloodier, games taking place."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:04 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 211
Location: Germany/UK
Whilst building titans I got to thinking about some augmentation/special rules/ circumstances
In no particular order:

TiTaN DoWn

When we lose a titan, instead of everyone in LOS getting a BM how about this; any titan in LOS to a downed titan that isnt crewed by a Legate/Princeps (as it is assumed the Legate/Princeps/MS are Stalwart enough to witness such a blow) have to make the following roll:

1-2 The crew's inexperience coupled with the Machine Spirit mourn the loss - receive 1BM

3-4 The crews experience coupled with the Machine Spirit fortitude vow to press on - 0 BM

5-6 The Machine Spirit is enraged, and severs its connection to the crew to avenge the fallen titan. It charges to the nearest enemy unit (even if out of normal movement range) & carries out a stomp (see stomp) and full weapon attack. The enraged titan receives a -1 to hit. Post attack the titan comes under joint control of the crew & returns to its pre-attack position. This does not count as an activation.

TaRgET aCqUiReD

When a titan that has a missile as part of its loadout but doesnt have LOS, it may use the LOS of a titan that has, & rolls accordingly:

1 Titan fails to receive target data & cannot launch

3 - 5 Titan with LOS to tgt successfully relays tgt data

6 Target data so accurate that IC rule is used (even on a warhead that would not normally attracts this rule)

StOmP

The attacker states that he wishes to engage in CC/FF, after the attacker has 'set up' the engage, the Titan carries out a stomp attack. Only 4BP regardless of template numbers are In the Stomp attack; the following is used:

Warhound - 1 small barrage template placed on enemy 4BP - no extra BM/templates used

Reaver - 2 small barrage templates placed on enemy 4BP - 1 BM/no extra templates used

Warlord - 3 small barrage templates placed on enemy 4BP - 2 extra BM/no extra templates used

Emperor - 1 Large barrage template 4BP 3 extra BM

Post stomp attack normal combat resolution resumes, but takes into account any models lost in the stomp phase.
The extra BM coupled with the fear of being squashed are the reasoning behind them. WE that fall under the template are half DC rounded up but do not receive the extra BM(ie if stomping on a Shadowsword its assumed the crew have sufficient faith in their armour), cannot stomp on another titan.

If a unit contains WE & non WE units then the extra BM applies.

VsG CoNvErGeNcE

This is used when a Battle titan (Reaver or Warlord) has had 1 or more of its shields stripped but has already been activated or failed to activate or has subsequently been stripped of shields. The VSG Convergence allows the sharing/reinforcement of damaged titan shields. Second titan moves to within 15 cm of the damaged titan & the 2nd titan rolls accordingly:

1 - The shields fail to syncronise, the VSG overloads causing a further loss of 1 shield to each Titan. If all shields are lost then 1 DC is lost - roll to crit

2-5 The shields are in perfect Hamony. The damaged Titan now has the same VSG as the healthy one, till end phase

6 The VSG on the damaged titan automatically restores +1 VSG.

End phase both titans can received their normal shield regen plus D3. No more VSG than the start shield count can be used, it is assumed any additional shields burn out. The second titan may then make disengage move from the damaged Titan.

Warhounds cannot use VSG Convergence on each other or larger classes of titans due to their size.

Emperors cannot use VSG on smaller classes due to the possibility of overload


Last edited by junkstar on Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:29 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 211
Location: Germany/UK
Just looked @ the UK weapon list in comparison to this one the differences are significant to say the least. Perhaps adoption of a singular list, taking the best from both? Reason being is that these are the imperiums most powerful WE, to have them fitted with 'sub standard' weaponry with low activation count its not a wonder not many use this list. Low activations should be enhanced with excellent weaponry options.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:03 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 3918
Location: Greenville, SC
Hey Junkstar,

While I appreciate you're intentions with special rule suggestions, we try to limit the number of SR any list has. Most lists have only one or two SR to add a bit of flavor rather than use them as a basis for the list. What you're proposing is too reliant on SR and too complicated to easily explain in the 5 minute warmup.

A bit of history around weapon power: After EUK posted their list we tried to make some of the titan weapons more powerful. The result was people just hated playing against AMTL because things like plasma destructors would devastate a formation in a single turn and we backed off a bit. While it might be fitting and necessary for this to happen to make the list more accurate, it's pretty clear that can't happen.

If we can't change weapon strength and we shouldn't add more special rules, then the path lies in opening up more options for AMTL players to compensate for lower firepower. I think we can do that by tweaking the chassis cost for some of the titans and making Skitarii more viable by removing the Corvus restriction. I'd like to see titan players able to get an extra activation or two and see the warlord more viable on the field.

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:15 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 211
Location: Germany/UK
One of them is a change to an already existing rule, which I never understood why it should be there. Being TL & not getting the same number of dice as the UK lists is odd. Other amies have play tested/had point reductions IOT counter the TL list. If the only option is reduction in chassis price then mine will go back on display as they arent fun to play compared to UK list, nd ever more powerful armies on the rise. When did you last compare the weapon stats to the UK list out of interest?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:17 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 211
Location: Germany/UK
I thought there was already a Skitari list? why are the Titans being backfilled with them instead of concentrating of their deficiencies?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:39 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 211
Location: Germany/UK
Looking @ the list 1 special rule - rest are construction constraints.

Titans should be augmented with robot maniples 8 not 4;as scouts using the automaton rules with all variants of robots available not


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:53 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:35 am
Posts: 4128
Different terrain conventions play a big part in the power of titans. The up gunned EUK weapons are kept manageable in that we don't play true LoS. I certainly would think that would be too powerful using Australian conventions

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:07 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:43 pm
Posts: 211
Location: Germany/UK
Steve54 wrote:
Different terrain conventions play a big part in the power of titans. The up gunned EUK weapons are kept manageable in that we don't play true LoS. I certainly would think that would be too powerful using Australian conventions


agreed, but rolling 4 dice to 6 dice in certain circumstances; there has always been not enough dice to substantiate the cost of running amtl vs its uk counterpart. To make a semi decent Reaver you need to dig into the single weapon surcharge & carapace multilasers, once done thats almost 1/3 of yr points gone


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:35 am
Posts: 2720
Maybe removing the single weapon surcharge or including the carapace multilasers in the cost of the titan can help?

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:24 pm
Posts: 83
Location: Galicia
Overall i feel it is just a bit overpowered, but i am accustomed to play with less activations than my opponents so i can't see their weakness in that as others. Play with 9-10 most of the time in other armies.

Reasons, for now.

- Reavers:
1. They have access to the biggest weapons even though they never had that in any edition of this game (haven't checked AT yet) and also to every weapon, and the miniature itself has the same weapon choices as the Warhound, save two base contact weapons. That's quite strange.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/ca ... ans-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/ca ... ans-01.htm
2. They are relatively fast for a titan (20cm).
3. For a titan they aren't expensive so you can deploy several with no big hurt for activations (taking into account it is a Titan list of course).

So we have a RELATIVELY fast and not expensive Titan with the option to carry all the weapons of the list. No surprise most people don't take the Warlord. It is not only a matter of the Warlord eating too many activations but the Reaver making it useless too by being too good compared with the Warlord.

My advice is to keep the biggest weapons from them, something similar to what was done in the UK list, not only for balance but to make the choices more tactical and so they need more thought, and drop 25 points from the Warlord or make only its exclusive weapons one rank (75 to 50, 50 to 25, 25 to free) cheaper. That second option sounds better for me as it makes the Warlord a better option tactically speaking.



- Close Combat weapon:
1. It is the most damaging base contact weapon of all the lists in this game by a +50%, including the experimental ones as afar as i know, and Imperial Titans in particular and human armies in general aren't known for its CC power, so there is no point for them having the best one, neither strategically nor lore wise.
2. You can take several. Even with the extra surcharge cost you can create an unbalanced monster (with two would already be), unbalanced but still a monster.
3. It can be put in a Reaver, which can outrun infantry, so half the other army would need to retreat (and their strategy crumbles), throw him sacrifices which is OK if you know you are facing the list but in tourneys can be bad, or try to defeat him which is very tricky and luck involved or very costly with CC assault reliant factions but easy with ones more shooting and FF oriented.
3. It is just 25 points. At least isn't free like before.
4. You are setting an example for other lists, and the power creep expands, have seen it in newer lists trying to emulate this weapon.

Lower its power to the one of the currently second best weapon so EA+2 TK1D3 but i would go for EA+1 TKD6 and it would still be third best which is still OP for this kind of army but acceptable. This second option would help it differentiate from the other option for base contact, so it is a more tactical option. If you don't want to lower its power, at least put it at 50 points, but that wouldn't fix much, even if it costs an appropriate amount of points it still isn't good, it's still a behemoth of a weapon.


- Melta canon:
1. It is the second best FF weapon and almost the first, and the first is in a glass canon in an army that excels in quality of its FF. The issue is less than with the previous one as this is a reliant more on FF and shoots than on base contact army by strategy and lore.
2. Has also a MW2+ TK(1D3) shoot so have no big weakness as a weapon slot even if it is 30cm.
3. Costs only 50 points.
4. Again, as one of the best ones, it helps the power creep.

Just making it 75 points would be enough in my eyes. I don't see many ways to downgrade it enough for 50 points and i prefer to not to mess in its stats just in case another army uses it too.


- On the other side:
1. Maybe they are lacking one type of troops, weapons or upgrade even though an army shouldn't have a good one of each. I'll play some more games and think about it.
2. Improving Warhounds could help with fast armies, but could end up easily going overboard.


My main advice is to play this army against another with a list choosing low activations on purpose, and see what are the strenghts and weakness compared with them. It would give a more objective point of view, i think.
Also, try crazy list ideas you think are bad when testing AMTL. Most of the times, even if the ideas are horrible, and idea can appear for the ''good'' AMTL list.

mordoten wrote:
Maybe removing the single weapon surcharge or including the carapace multilasers in the cost of the titan can help?


For the first, this isn't orks or marines. They aren't that flexible and this list can't use their system and should be kept that way for flavour. The idea of the surcharge is good for this. I was thinking that even for the OGBM could be good. How about instead of dropping it making it so only affect the third weapon on Warlords and Reavers and keep the Warhound as it is OR doing the opposite and dropping it from Warhounds and keep the other two as they are? I prefer the second option myself.

For the second part you mention, are you refering about so the Warlord would have 4+1automatic and Reaver 3+1 weapons? Looks too complicated. There has to be a better option. I prefer lower the points or giving more options over giving extra things by default.

_________________
Orkses is never beaten in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die so it don't count as beat. If we runs for it we don't die neither, so we can always come back for anuvver go, see!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: AMTL Power Level Poll
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:21 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Harsefeld, Germany
I play Titans and I don't think they are too weak or too strong, yes, UK List would be nice with some dice to roll...
I will fight with my Titans in Copenhagen this years EEC although just the fun group.

Normally I get to field 7 to 9 activations, not much, but you field Titans, which is enough to let your enemys think twice about what they do.

Titans beeing able to wipe out detachments in one round of shooting, do the math: one Warhound 275 points vs 4 Preds 250 points = check
One Reaver vs 10 Leman Russ both about 600 points ok too.

The last games I played were against Cadian Shocktroops -> win, Steel Legion -> win and Tyranids -> close win.
VS Imps my opponent did not managed to get more than one or two detachments into effective range so I could wipe them in CC. The Tyranids attacked with 4 detachments in round 2 but I pulled all my Titans together and was able to effectively fight every round with 4 Titans thx to supporting fire.
In the end, it is all about the dice and if they like you or not.

All 3 games should be somewhere to be found on Facebook...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net