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EpicAU: Hive Fleet Behemoth V1.0

 Post subject: Re: EpicAU: Hive Fleet Behemoth V1.0
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:29 pm 
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I'm confused by a few things in the list.

1) Is it intended that I can take many Supreme Commanders (not just multiple Dominatrix, but I can add the Symbiote as well- so I do have 2 active Supreme Commanders at one time.

2) Tyrannocytes can't be carried by either space ship. I'm not sure if that's normal for drop pods, but it makes the space-to-ground transition rather hard.

3) Why are Hormagaunts limited, but Termagants unlimited? This is also a factor in the EUK list, and I don't get it.

4) I get why you want to make Warriors be LV's, and with a 3+ save that's not so bad, but why are Raveners and Lictors still standard Infantry then?

5) Lictor's have a -1 to be hit. Is that cumulative with cover, venomthropes, etc?

6) How do Tervigons work? I can take 1-4 of them as their own unit. They can then spawn Termagants that must join their unit. Each Tervigon can only control 4 Termagants- but am I expected to remember which Tervigon spawned which Termagants, or are they free to shuffle? Can the Termagants be moved on at all if another swarm is close by? If not, that's some rather limited spawning (on a unit that can get damned expensive). What happens if a Tervigon dies and I have more Termagants than the remainder can handle? Do the excess die?

7) Why is there 'Broodmother (X)', when only Tervigons can spawn, and they can only spawn Termagants?

8) Above (5th post) you mention Skimmer Gargoyles. No Gargoyles have Skimmer?

9) Why does a Venomthrope have Synapse?

10) Just to be clear- Assault Swarms can 'replace one or two Warriors with one Hive Tyrant- 50 pts'. I assume that means I can replace two Warriors with 2 Hive Tyrants? Not that I can choose to trade one or two Warriors for just one Hive Tyrant?

Sorry to have so many little questions- I like what you're aiming for, I just think it needs some polish.


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 Post subject: Re: EpicAU: Hive Fleet Behemoth V1.0
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:11 am 
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Hi Geep,

Thanks for your comments. Ill try to address them.You have obviously had a good look at the list and I thank you for taking the time to do so. Ive been looking at the list for a few weeks now but have still managed to miss stuff. My editor-in-chief and OIC Homefront is away at the moment and she is normally my editor! ha!

Its also good to get an external view on the list as I know what I mean, but it can be challenging trying to write the rules succinctly and still convey the overall intent.

 

 

 I'm confused by a few things in the list.

1) Is it intended that I can take many Supreme Commanders (not just multiple Dominatrix, but I can add the Symbiote as well- so I do have 2 active Supreme Commanders at one time. 

Yes. The multiple domis and symbiote character grant the potential for multiple SC in the same list. I wanted to keep the flavour of the Hive mind link that you get with multiple domis plus grant the option to allow people to field stand alone SC in the form of a Hive Tyrant.

 If it proves to be simply too ridiculous we can look at limiting it to read that if there is no Domis then a 0-1 symbiote can be purchased.

2) Tyrannocytes can't be carried by either space ship. I'm not sure if that's normal for drop pods, but it makes the space-to-ground transition rather hard. 

Hahah indeed. I didnt even see that. I just took it as "common sense" but there are is no entry in the Space Craft section. I will amend their transport capacity to read: 'and enough Tyrannocytes to carry any other units on board.' 

3) Why are Hormagaunts limited, but Termagants unlimited? This is also a factor in the EUK list, and I don't get it. 

The Termagants are the most numerous sub species of the gaunt genus. They are responsible for guard duties and general mall cop functions aboard a hive ship and a broad range of combat functions as part of the tyranid invasion. They are typically considered the most common form of nid from which other subspecies are derived.

The hormogants are also numerous, but used either in support of termagants or as part of independent operations. They are driven by hunger and their rapid metabolism which means they have a shorter life span than the termie. They are also one of the few tyranid creatures that can lay their own eggs and reproduce.

So basically the lore states that termies are more numerous, hence the propensity for termies as the base and hormies as the upgrade.

 

From a purely game mechanics point of view - making hormies the base/unlimited would mean you could have up to 16 hormies and 2 Flyrants that could march first turn and conduct a double engage move on the second turn with 32 CC attacks + flyrants. This would be a devastating formation and would need to be priced accordingly. At the moment the points for hormies can be kept as is due to their lack of FF and the fact that they are often anchored by termies movement. 

4) I get why you want to make Warriors be LV's, and with a 3+ save that's not so bad, but why are Raveners and Lictors still standard Infantry then? 

So this was a tricky one that we debated over for a bit. Basically warriors are LVs to reduce the effectiveness of the swarms. Raveners and lictors do not confer similar benefits to aslt swarms like warriors do therefore can be treated a little differently. Raveners are a swarm  of creatures that are smaller than tyranid warriors and slither around the place so could continue to be classed as infantry. However, and im just realising this now, they have synapse which is not in accordance with the fluff so I will remove that now.

 Lictors however are on the cusp. they are usually single figures rather than swarms (like the raveners). Especially considering we have given them the -1 to hit already it may be worthwhile to make them LVs. I would like to see would like to playtest them as infantry first, but expect that if we keep the -1 to hit that we will need to make them LVs. 

5) Lictor's have a -1 to be hit. Is that cumulative with cover, venomthropes, etc? 

So we wanted to make the -1 to hit for lictors and venomthropes work slightly differently from each other. You will note that it is not counted as in cover, so weapons with ignore cover will not negate the -1 to hit, to represent not being able to acquire the target.  I think that this may be a little too OP when it comes to it and the rule may just need to be written that the unit counts as in cover. 

So the intent is that the Lictors always count as in cover (whilst negating weapons with IC) and is not cumulative, but the venomthrope -1 to hit is cumulative to the -1 to hit modifier for cover.

So a stealer in the open would get a -1 to hit.

A stealer in cover would get a -1 to hit.

A stealer in the open with a venomthrope within 15cm would get a -1 to hit.

A stealer in cover with a venomthrope with 15cm would get a -2 to hit.

 

I think an easier way to right the rule through would be - Lictors always count as in cover. Any unit within 15cm of a venomthrope counts as in cover.

 


6) How do Tervigons work? I can take 1-4 of them as their own unit. They can then spawn Termagants that must join their unit. Each Tervigon can only control 4 Termagants- but am I expected to remember which Tervigon spawned which Termagants, or are they free to shuffle? Can the Termagants be moved on at all if another swarm is close by? If not, that's some rather limited spawning (on a unit that can get damned expensive). What happens if a Tervigon dies and I have more Termagants than the remainder can handle? Do the excess die? 

So you're right about how they work.

I didnt want to allow them to break off as that may become a bit too OP - with the ability to dish out 12 stands of termagants every turn to go charging into the fray. It would align with the nid theme but a bit hard to price.

The intent for the rule is that once you reach four termagants you cannot spawn any more. I didnt go too in-depth with the mechanics in the rules section, but I think I could write it a bit clearer in that each tervigon can spawn 1d3 termagants at the start of the turn, up to a maximum of 4 per tervigon. That would alleviate having to explain what to do upon the sudden death of your mother. Because it is no longer about "control" and just the spawning.

So therefore, if there are 4 tervigons that have spawned 16 termagants and 2 tervigons die, at the start of the next turn those two remaining tervigons may not spawn any other units.

This would also remove the need to account for who's who's in the kindergarten from hell that is a tervigon nursery. As again its about ability to spawn, rather than ability to "control".

I also think its pretty reasonably priced. For 500 points you get some pretty decent monsters. 4++ save, 4x4+CC and 4x4CC MW attacks or 4x5+FF attacks, plus the potential to deal out 16 5+FF attacks. Not to mention the fact that they have the ability to return to the fray after suffering shooting or combat casualties. 500 points makes them 150 points more expensive than a large aslt swarm - for that you get the same potential termagants, that can be self reinforcing plus 4x 4++ armoured units that arent as susceptible to MW attacks as the warriors.


7) Why is there 'Broodmother (X)', when only Tervigons can spawn, and they can only spawn Termagants? 

So we were are considering introducing Broodmother (Gargoyles) for harpys or Harridans; or Broodmother (raveners) for trygons' or Broodmother (carnifex's) for the Dominatrix... (those last two were jokes).

8) Above (5th post) you mention Skimmer Gargoyles. No Gargoyles have Skimmer? 

Gawd Damn it. Should be skimmer. Poor version control on my behalf. 

9) Why does a Venomthrope have Synapse? 

They shouldnt... I was supposed to remove that. You're not the first to pick that one out. hahaha. 

10) Just to be clear- Assault Swarms can 'replace one or two Warriors with one Hive Tyrant- 50 pts'. I assume that means I can replace two Warriors with 2 Hive Tyrants? Not that I can choose to trade one or two Warriors for just one Hive Tyrant? 

Should read "Replace any number or Tyranid Warriorswith Hive Tyrants-50 points."

Sorry to have so many little questions- I like what you're aiming for, I just think it needs some polish. 

No need to apologise. thanks for seeking clarification. Its a good lesson for me on how to convert my intent into a tabulated form. And its great receiving your feedback to see how others have interpreted the list as presented. I'll be giving it a bit of spit tonight to make it nice and shiny for the playtesting weekend ahead. 

Cheers,

Jim 


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 Post subject: Re: EpicAU: Hive Fleet Behemoth V1.0
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:40 pm 
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I was planning on trying my hand at a 'nid list sometime, incorporating many of the new things- like with this list.

An idea I was toying with for Venomthropes was to have them as a 1-3 upgrade in swarms, with the special rule that any two units touching them (plus the Venomthropes themselves) gain cover in exactly the same way as infantry gain cover from Armoured Vehicles (ie. -1 to be hit, but no cover save). This makes their rules very simple, and by referring back to a currently existing rule most questions regarding how it works should already be addressed. For gameplay it provides a few options: 1) Take a few Venomthropes so you have a swarm part-in and part-out of cover (so your opponent may question whether to take the penalty or not- especially important if the Warriors are the ones in cover). 2) Take a few Armoured Vehicles, and just use Venomthropes to give cover to any extra infantry stands that would otherwise miss out. 3) Take Armoured Vehicles and Venomthropes- use the Venomthropes to give the AV's cover, then get infantry to gain cover from the AV's. This chain-cover would be effective, but would really force your swarm into a tight pack, vulnerable to artillery.

Feel free to steal that idea if you like it.

On another note- do you know of anyone making these new models in Epic scale?

Edit: Some other thoughts

There's no reason why Raveners shouldn't be LVs if Warriors are- in 40k they are near identical (swapping Synapse for speed). If they were LVs they would be a useful model to help protect the Warriors from incoming fire- I remember this being an idea behind earlier lists

For the Tervigons- I'm not a fan of the D3 spawning. I'd make it a set 2, because I prefer the randomness in Epic to be focussed on orders and direct unit-to-unit interactions (shooting, assault, etc). If you do keep the D3, then they're a gambler's unit- it's quite possible that not only will they not replace their losses each turn, but they will, in fact, fail to even reach their maximum allocation by game's end (turn 3) with no enemy assistance (I know I am more than capable of rolling that many 1's). To help compensate for that I'd recommend giving them the option to purchase 'pre-spawned' termagants at a heavily discounted price- maybe 5pts per base? It's effectively a bet against yourself, just to be safe, as if you roll well for spawning then those points paid could be wasted.


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 Post subject: Re: EpicAU: Hive Fleet Behemoth V1.0
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:04 am 
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Hey Geep,
Prepurchased termies... i love it!

I only know of 2 companies currently making good bugs and thats winters forge http://wintersforge.weebly.com
And onslaught.

Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: EpicAU: Hive Fleet Behemoth V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:30 pm 
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I have just ordered some space bug cruisers and other sundries from http://wintersforge.weebly.com/

The plan is to use at least 1 as a cruiser and convert the rest into tyrannocytes!


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 Post subject: Initial thoughts on the list.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:48 am 
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I think the list has an interesting theme and I well done to Jim for trying to make nids a little less 1 dimensional. That said I think this list in it’s current form has some pretty massive advantages that make it quite OP.

IMO Behemoth is basically just taking all the best bits of EPICUK Tyranids and then adding a whole bunch of stuff, IMO there is no downside, it’s just better in every respect, that’s not balance.

The key strength of the Epic UK list is the ability for gaunts to count for nothing in combat. It basically means that it is ridiculously easy for nids to win engagements by prepping a unit with blast markers then doing clipping assaults where they inflict a wound or two, take nothing much back and win on a combination of blast markers/numbers etc. Considering Jim (who of course is writing this) just won two tourneys with EpicUK it’s fair to assume he’s familiar with this tactic! As are his opponents no doubt ;D

In fact this tactic is considered so foolproof by the EPIC UK peoples that they just increased the points of those units to reflect this… Behemoth still has the cheaper options…

Behemoth Warriors have new stats as LV compared to EPIC UK. Must admit I’m not keen on this because I thought the intention was always to keep the stats the same for offshoot armies? More importantly I know this is badged as a weakness because you can ‘pick them out’ (As LV) but is it really a weakness when they now have 3+ armour? 5+ is the UK equivalent and that could be considered a legitimate compensation for the reduced points if we were ok with the stats alterations. Not that I’m a fluff bunny but I do wonder how you can justify a 3+ armour save on a Tyranid warrior that is better than both a hive tyrant and a carnifex…

How many people have considered the synergies between warriors and Venomthropes? Going to be pretty hard to pick out anything when there is an automatic -1 (that stacks with cover…) on the warriros that will be inevitably screening the Venomthrope in beautiful synergy. So thanks to that combo the army that is almost impossible to beat in engagement thanks to combat rules now gets substantially harder to kill with shooting because everything will be in -1/-2 cover with no real chance to pick out either the synapse or venomthropes…
My other major concern with this list is with the space options. These are totally new and give a huge advantage to the assault army that the Epic UK core list doesn’t have, nor does there seem to be a downside.
You pay 200pts for a Hive cruiser which can’t be delayed through the normal space ship turn order rules because there is a special rule to stop that. Has the ability to cover the entire board with spores that put an automatic blast marker onto everything not Tyranid and can carry 60 troops…

Normally there is a distinct skill when placing AA and an opposite skill for the person using the planes as they try and dodge said bubbles. Limited AA is one of the key weaknesses of Epic UK but that is completely negated by this which ensures that every ground assault will be coming in with a blastie by default and repeated use of aircraft is going to be difficult regardless of positioning… That ability is amazing for 200pts… What’s the downside? Just like all the other new things, there’s not one I can see!

To drop those little buggers from space you spend 50 points buying a Tyrannocyte… For a big swarm it’s approximately half the points per base than marines spend on drop pods to do the same thing and comes with an attack that targets everything within 15cm of landing… That in itself is amazing for it’s points… even before you talk about the stuff coming out…
Now nids have low strategy rating so it’s great that you will probably go first and get a chance to shoot at the 40 guys that just landed directly within assault range… You’d better make those shots count because you probably can’t beat them in assault but unfortunately most of them will be in at least -1 cover (possibly -2 if they found a terrain piece) and can’t be broken with shooting because none of the kills will count for blast markers… Ummm… yeah… 50pts…

Of course they could do it with 120 models if they want to wait until turn 3… and add in a 6bp disrupt barrage or 3 MW4+ shots for an extra 100pts…

It’s not like they lost the deep striking options that the EPIC Uk list has always enjoyed… or anything else…
Don’t get me wrong, I love the intention to try and make the nids less of a 1 dimensional charge across the board force. But just taking the best bits of a previous list which has only recently been acknowledged as OP (thus the points increase) and adding a whole pile of new options and advantages with no downside isn’t the way to do it.

If you want to run all these new things no dramas, drop the gaunts don’t count for Res in engagement rule and play them as expendable, same as the Net Epic Tyranid. That should have been the core list that was used here anyway given that is the ruleset and lists that people use in Australia.

Please also bear in mind these are initial thoughts, I’ve not played against the new nids so my observations are primarily based off the original EpicUK list. I’m more than willing to play someone running this list in a friendly game but I wouldn’t expect to face it at a comp in it’s current form.


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 Post subject: Re: EpicAU: Hive Fleet Behemoth V1.0
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:55 am 
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Hey guys,

I managed a game with this list yesterday. Time was tight so we didn't do a turn for turn recount of the battle, however I'll try to sum up as best i can what the dealy-o was.

I'll trying to be constructive as possible because this list like I've mentioned before has me actually blowing dust of nid models that haven't seen the table yet, until you made this list, so thank you for your efforts in those regards (and to those that assisted you building)


So the game was nids vs EpicUK Dark Eldar.
lists taken:

Quote:
Normal Assault swarm [250]
2 Tyranid Warriors and 8 Termagants, Tyrannocyte

Big Assault Swarm [400]
4 Tyranid Warriors and 16 Termagants, Tyrannocyte

Big Assault Swarm [450]
1 Hive tyrants( Hive Mind Symbiote), 3 Tyranid Warriors and 16 Termagants, venomthrope

Big Brute Swarm [200]
1 Hive tyrants, 1 Malefactor, 2 Haruspex

Normal Nest Swarm [375]
1 Hive Nest and 4 Termagents/Hormagaunts + 4 Dactylises

Hive Capital Bio-Ship [200]
1 Hive cruiser Bio-Ship

Lictor Brood [200]
4 Lictors

Spore Mine cluster [150]
6 Spore Mine Cluster units

Genestealer Swarm [150]
6 Genestealers

Harassment Swarm [200]
1 Harridan

Harassment Swarm [200]
1 Harridan

Gargoyles [225]
10 gargoyles


and
Quote:
Dark Eldar 3rd Strike, 3000 POINTS
Dark Eldar (EpicUK V.10042013)
==================================================

KABAL COTERIE [325]
4 Incubi, 1 Archon character, 2 Incubi, 3 Raider

WEBWAY PORTAL [50]

PORTABLE WEBWAY PORTAL [50]

KABAL SYNDICATE [350]
6 Warriors, Barge, Raider, Dracon

KABAL SYNDICATE [275]
6 Warriors, Dracon, 2 Raider, 2 Venoms

KABAL FLOTILLA [275]
Ravager

KABAL FLOTILLA [275]
Ravager

REAVERS [250]
6 Reavers, Succubus

REAVERS [250]
6 Reavers, Succubus

HEAVY BARGE [250]
1 Vessel of Pain

HEAVY BARGE [250]
1 Vessel of Pain

RAZORWING FIGHTERS [200]
2 Razorwings

RAZORWING FIGHTERS [200]
2 Razorwings



I plotted my space craft drop zone to land both units that were in tyranocytes within the triangle of my T&H objectives + his blitz, which arrived turn 2 and I retained with the big formation for an engagement which cleared that area as he was preoccupied with other units elsewhere on the table.
Bunch of other shit happened within your typical game. end of the day i won with behemoth 3-0.
Securing BLITZ, T&H & BTS.

The important part -
This was my opponents first game against nids of any variety, and i don't think many people win their first game facing a new army especially facing nids, they're just so different. so with that considered, I was actually playing my first ever game using nids, the key issue you here, while i feel i have a decent grasp on the game i had no idea what i was doing, i was throwing formations around like a collection tin at church. everyone can have an engagement, sure. and i won every single one of them. The army felt point and click and im not ever sure i was running the most OP possible build.

So my concerns as far as wanting to keep friends / what feedback i have for the list after my game are the big glaring problems.

- Space craft,
* The sky darkens, while i love the idea, theme and fluff behind it. unnecessary.
* i don't think we're going to need the 2 classes of craft, perhaps 1 that can carry a maximum of 2 of the "big" formations?
*Tyrannocytes - balancing with points needs to be looked at. more expensive for bigger formations using them etc. they honestly don't need the 15cm shooting when they land, unless some serious changes are made back at the normal swarms in terms of how amazing they are in engagements.


- Warriors
Current form is just not going to work. for multitudes of reasons i guess. 3+ i think im one of the few that see where you're trying to come from with this, because they're L/V's they're super easy to be picked out - i don't care what anyone says. however i'm not smart enough to really think up of an alternative to where you're at but like i said they're going to need a change in my opinion.

- Gargoyles, in a formation are a nice addition to the army however i feel points better spent would be to have them spread out through the army in formations rather than on their own.

- Venomthropes. I think we've already come to the conclusion they shouldn't stack with cover. I DO actually like the addition of them to the army, but for them to remain, again i'd believe some changes need to be made.

- brute swarm performed well, luckily they didn't really come under fire so go to meander around and grab an objective late game after winning an engagement turn 2 vs ravegers. despite fighting skimmers they certainly chewed them up. a "big" brute swarm could have the potential to be rather nasty.

- Lictors i can't really see any problems with in the present form, they're what they are, much like in netEA/UK

-Genestealers were taken out by Aircraft really early in the game so i didn't get to see how they went.

- spore mine clusters didn't do a great deal this game, however the potential to screen your nest from terminators would be cool / interesting to see how that goes in future games in terms of balance.

-Harradin , didn't get to do a whole lot as they were targets by the air craft and spent a lot of time broken.

Lastly, the Nest swarm with Dactylis, they're a strong formation / blitz guard. I'm sitting on the fence, their 4BP certainly did an awful lot of damage in this particular game, but i benefited a lot from my opponents placement of units. i think further play testing may be needed before consideration of maxing it to 3 dactylis.

Overall, this list has all the potential in the world and we can make it work Jim!

Looking forward to seeing some feedback from yourself after you get a game with them.

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 Post subject: Re: EpicAU: Hive Fleet Behemoth V1.0
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:04 pm 
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this is a really really cool list!

I'd love to see it with the onachus list so we can all use it! ;D

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 Post subject: Re: EpicAU: Hive Fleet Behemoth V1.0
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:53 am 
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The list does look like a lot of fun, but some of Beefcake4000's are quite valid. Primary concerns would be new rules like The Sky Darkens*, but mainly the power level of this version.

I understand that this is first iteration of a list, and it's not uncommon for the early versions to contain a sort of wish-list to fix perceived problems, but I'd be concerned the leap in power might be so much it could slow its own approval process.

On a side note, I wouldn't mind at all helping with some testing and input on a list like this if the goal was to get it to where it's so universally acceptable that it could be a NetEA list. That always means more hoops to jump through, but I think we're a small enough community without needing a new NetAU version of lists :D



*The Sky Darkens: A Tyranid player gains The sky darkens special rule after activating a bioship and the rule remains in play until the end of the game. While The Sky Darkens is in effect all enemy aircraft formations gain a blast marker after they activate in addition to any other Blast Markers incurred for coming under fire or leaving the table by any board edge other than their own.

(Very thematic, but either extremely powerful and unavoidable or entirely irrelevant, dependant on the opponents list and how much Air they brought. It's also worth mentioning it doesn't necessarily fix a key Nid problem - a landing craft or thunderhawk can get in before the bio titan activates due to the differnce in strategy ratings. You might find this rule is simultaneously both powerful and unsatisfactory to both the nid and their opponent 8) )


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