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My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List

 Post subject: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:44 pm 
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I played a bunch of games with my Tyranid Army and this is what I think of the Army list. These are just my opinions. Not trying to be judgmental just listing my thoughts. Also, there is only 1 approved tyranid list. There is several of every other Army. There need to be 3 or 4 approved tyranids lists too. Maybe this is a possible start to one.

The tyranid list makes no sense. All the viable strategies to win are exactly the opposite of what tyranids would actually do in the fluff. Many units are almost impossible to use in the game system, especially close combat units.

Spawning is probably broken. It feels like the rules for the tyranid units suck so someone tried to buff them by adding spawning as a quick fix. It works in that they are more powerful now but it makes you run, hide, try to survive and take shots when you can. Play a style that is more eldar-like than tyranid-like. Plus spawning can be completely overpowering at times by keeping most formations alive and hard to break by shooting it lets you have more activations turn 3 to control objectives. This is not a fun way to win. “I just survived and moved onto all the objectives, Yeah I win”. I would rather charge close combat and destroy like a true tyranid player.
I would say synapse not getting the -2 for broken is too powerful but to be honest the way you have to hide and run around with tyranids I never have that many broken units. Usually only one each turn which I save the supreme commander reroll for. In my opinion, the tyranids should be hard to break but not easy to rally. Not the other way around like it is now. Something like, get rid of the -2 and just say if they outnumber the enemy they can always fight an additional round of assault if they lose like in a tie and both sides get a 5 or 10 cm counter charge move.

Close Combat only troops need there points reduced. Most other units in the game can simply assault outside CC range and break them easily. 6 bases of marines can easily break 30 bases of hormagaunts be standing 6 cm away. What’s more likely marines jump out of rhinos and kill 4 hormagaunts, the hormagaunts charge or they run away. The 26 bases of hormaguants charge every time, they are tyranids, lethal aliens with 4 giant claws that leap and kill. But in this game they run away like 90% of the time.

Hormagaunts can’t really use infiltrate because the tyranids warriors or hive tyrants doesn’t have it. This needs to be fixed. All the Hormagaunts should be able to move 40 and not be slowed down to 20 by the tyranids warriors. The infiltrate on them is almost useless. Give those synapse units with them infiltrate too. Make the game at least fun to play for tyranids. The synapse units adapt to their surroundings, tyranid adaptable genetics etc.

I think all tyranid units should get infiltrate. It’s silly, a marine with a 15 cm move can move double (30 cm) and shoot at tyranids and never be in CC range of 20 or 25 cm forever. What universe is that possible in? Charging and swiping with a claw is much quicker than moving aiming and shooting. Plus the unit is quicker.

Some other minor Comments

There is almost no point in transporting units in a malefactor and they’re 50 points. If the malefactor dies so do your units because of bad armor. Plus most enemies only shoot AT at you anyway, you’re just giving away free kills. Make this unit useful somehow. An extra 5 – 10 cm to assault isn’t doing it.

Lictors only have 1 CC attack for 50 points, they should have 2, a ravener has 2 for 35 points and you can get it back with synapse

Should be able to take an only Carnifex formation (although 50 points and it can only really do damage in CC is steep, most like just get broken from FF and all the gaunts die which you are force to take)

Dactylis get less potent adding each additional one and should be less after the first one (really, 100 points each in their own formation)

Gargoyles don’t add anything to the Harridan. Mostly they just make it easier to beat in an assault.

Harridan is too useful in grabbing objectives for the points. Probably needs to have better guns and CC, be more expensive. This plays into just survive and grab objects 3rd turn strategy.

For 550 points the Hierophant kind of sucks. It usually does less damage shooting than either the Dominatrix or Hierodule which are 200 points cheaper. 200 points for 2 DC more blows. It needs a ranged TK or MW like every other expensive titan. The one point regeneration also is terrible compared to void shields. It should have infiltrate so it least has a chance of CC.

I like the tunneler rule, it’s the only way under the current rules to actually have a chance to get in CC. But if some of the rules change this may need to change too.

Genestealers don’t seem to do much as they are just slightly better hormagaunts that don’t come back to life.

To sum up. Basically, get rid of spawning, ignore -2 synapse. Buff the units to fill the roles they should be able to do. Add rule to make them harder to break. Just my two cents from playing tyranids in various games (epic, space hulk, 40k) for 20 years.


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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:51 pm 
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Have you tried the EpicUK tyranid list out? plays very differently, it may suit your playstyle better, I certainly get the image of an unstoppable wave of spiky critters eager to get up close and personal when facing it..... ;)

even just to compare the two it might be worth a try?

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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:35 pm 
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Sounds like you have some good ideas and I can't say I disagree with some of your criticisms. It is unfortunate that there aren't more approved lists. Rhere are actually a bunch of races with only one approved list and even a few with none. You have to remember it takes some doing to get a list approved it's not like its just one person behind the scenes generating them. If you would like to make a new list and post it up I'm sure it would generate some discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:55 pm 
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Play the epic uk list. Problem solved (except for AVs sucking, but all else works as intended).

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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:21 am 
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Thanks for your thoughts. We are looking to get some more lists settled and then a review of the Nids can be carried out by the AC.

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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:05 am 
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I looked at the Epic Uk list and it is much more aggressive style. Although, the players in my area only play NET EA rules.

I am concerned that the core rule system seems to favor shooting and FF greatly over CC. Most games my opponent stays 1 cm outside CC range the entire game. Giving me no chance to CC at all, None. Seems silly to invest points in something that is so easy to completely nullify. A lot of times units can still contest objectives and stay outside CC range (use shooting and then put a couple units right at 15 cm from the objective marker). So CC units even tanking on objectives isn't that great.
I like epic it's a great strategy game. There should be more strategy involved to counter CC, shouldn't be that easy.

But I am still having fun with my shooty bug list. The game is a lot of fun. I just dream about my unit of 10 Carnifexes ripping apart a bunch of marines, Sigh.


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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:11 am 
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Why would they mind if you used a EpicUK list? We allow both in our tournaments...

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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:31 am 
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dreykeo wrote:
I looked at the Epic Uk list and it is much more aggressive style. Although, the players in my area only play NET EA rules.

I am concerned that the core rule system seems to favor shooting and FF greatly over CC. Most games my opponent stays 1 cm outside CC range the entire game. Giving me no chance to CC at all, None. Seems silly to invest points in something that is so easy to completely nullify. A lot of times units can still contest objectives and stay outside CC range (use shooting and then put a couple units right at 15 cm from the objective marker). So CC units even tanking on objectives isn't that great.
I like epic it's a great strategy game. There should be more strategy involved to counter CC, shouldn't be that easy.

But I am still having fun with my shooty bug list. The game is a lot of fun. I just dream about my unit of 10 Carnifexes ripping apart a bunch of marines, Sigh.


While I agree that FF is generally superior to CC in EA, the nid list can work well by overwhelming the opponent, if you move 3+ formations to within CC-engage range of enemy formations, then even if you lose the strategy roll, your opponent can't move out of range of ALL your formations, you can also exploit this by threatening key units and limiting where they can move to, support the big swarms with infiltrating genestealers and before you know it, your opponent is on the back foot....

I would suggest trying the EUK list out, surely your group would be willing to try it as a new list? it's not really different to trying a new NetEA list... if you don't like it, then don't use it again... seems silly to limit yourself arbitrarily, unless you're one of the people who just hate EpicUK and refuse to use the lists because of reasons ;)

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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:52 am 
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I think if I were designing a new version of Epic I would do something similar to what you suggest regarding CC. I would make it so that you can double move in an engage action, but if you do then you can't FF. That would make CC as good as FF.

Ah, dreams.

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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:11 pm 
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Yeah at risk of approaching off topic, yes the CC viability us a difficult one in EA where FF ability is far more important. In addition some additional combat specials would be nice in the game such as Assault Transport which allows units embarked to in turn have the ability to assault from the charging vehicle or something that allows a Charging CC only unit and extra bit of sneakiness that provides a penalty to OW fire. I think that CC orientated armies probably should leverage infiltrator and teleport more than they do now but that is another discussion entirely.

Don't get too caught up in any contrived Epic-UK/NetEA stuff. Regardless of list they are all using the same rules. There's nothing special about a NetEA list other than source. Both groups entire purview is the creation of tournament balanced lists, nothing more. The entire concept of "tested approved and balanced" from either group is more one of "stick your finger up in the air" in reality (Kyuss has an excellent evisceration posted somewhere here of any misconceptions otherwise). :)

Don't dismiss the use of the various fan lists either. There's several of them I prefer over plenty of "official" (whatever that means ::) ) lists, especially when playing with friends. Also, you might want to check out alternative scenarios to play as well. The's a disturbing habit of the GT Scenario being the only thing ever played (it's fantastic for 1. Tournaments and 2. being the general baseline for testing) but it's not the only one to play (the original EA book had several itself). Some others may play better for your needs/wants in a tyranid army and are worth checking out.

Lastly, try throwing some thoughts on an alternative hive fleet list annd sticking it out there. The entire way EA was envisioned was lots of lists very specific to a single war or engagement (and themed). There's no Nid list in reality, just XYZ fleet/battle list, of which the NetEA/Epic-UK groups have each published a single tournament ready list. It's a big universe out there.

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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:12 pm 
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dreykeo wrote:
I looked at the Epic Uk list and it is much more aggressive style. Although, the players in my area only play NET EA rules.


The rules are the same whichever set of fan lists are used.


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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:27 pm 
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Well that's a lot of text...

It would be nice if there were more approved Tyranid lists, but that takes playtesting. TacComms is 90% opinions and 10% playtests though, so here we are.

I'll start by saying some corroborating information (what you used, what the table looked like, how you activated your formations) would be helpful for a lot of this. Some elaboration would be helpful too. Starting a post with "this list makes no sense" isn't even slightly helpful. If it were, I would respond with "yes it is" and call it a day. Instead, I'm going to refer to the playtesting that was done with this list (of which there's 75+ relavent battle reports) to back up what I'm coming back to you with.

Spawning has been around for at least as long as I've been here. It's not a quick fix, and the current system is probably the weakest version of it the nids have ever seen. On average, a formation is returning 1-2 gaunts per turn with it. It helps a bit to keep formations in the game, but honestly that's more the rally bonus more than anything else. What swarming and the rally bonus are reinforcing is you have to kill the synapse creatures to effectively stop a nid army. That's how they work in the fluff, "shoot the big ones" and you have a chance. If you don't kill the synapse, you can expect the swarm to be back in the game in a turn, and at close to fighting strength another turn or two after that. If you don't think that's tyranidy, OK, but that seems pretty close to the fluff I've read.

On the close combat stuff, sure six bases of marines can break a lot of Hormagaunts in a FF. But why were the Hormagaunts in assault range? If you leave them within 30cm of the Marines, I'd expect them to be engaged. If they're between 31 and 40cm though they can engage the Marines in CC while all the Marines can do is kill a few of them and place a BM. I'll also add the swarms can be (and are meant to be) mixed. Add the AV bugs, Gargoyles and Termagants. Make them multi-use. Putting all your eggs in the CC basket is going to see them engaged in a FF by your opponent.

Given that I've taken Hormagaunts and Warriors in every one of my games and gotten the Hormagaunts into CC I don't see how they can't use their infiltrate ability. Keep them in back and the FF bugs in front. The FF bugs help when you get engaged in FF, and can be used for coherency for the Hormagaunts when the bugs engage. If you can keep the FF bugs outside of 30cm but within 35cm of the enemy you can also engage without being engaged yourself.

Malefactors have been a very common BTS for me. If you're leaving bugs in them, then yes you can expect them to die when the Malefactor dies. Unless I'm facing tons of BP weapons though I don't leave them in. If an enemy wants to shoot the Malefactors there's a 75% it'll save against a regular AT hit. I don't see that as giving away a free kill.

Lictors are 50 points because they can teleport, engage 40cm into CC with two enemies thanks to infiltrate, and attack with a -1 to the enemy's save before anything gets to attack them. They're one attack because we found two too powerful, and because they're one lictor not three raveners on a base.

An all Carnifex formation would be good for an AV list. I don't think it has a place in the base list. 50 points is on par with a faster Wraithlord without a shooting attack.

Dactylis have been playtested heavily in our group. Their cost scales similarly to other artillery formations. They cost more because they're initiative 1+ and have 4+RA for armor.

Put the Harridan in front and the Gargoyles in back. You get four extra 5+ FF attacks and outnumbering help for 80 points. Yes they're good at grabbing objectives but they're TK bait.

If the 'phant sucks, post some games and show us how. It's 175 more points than a 'dule which gets it bigger TK in CC, some FS CC attacks and the 2DC.

Same with the stealers. Use them to screen for teleports, keep them between 31 and 40cm of the enemy and you get your FS attacks on 2+.

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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:18 pm 
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+1 to trying the EpicUK list, it works way better. Our group changed to EpicUK mainly due to the spawning rule.

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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:26 am 
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+1 to epic UK nids list.

Ive been toying with a few ideas to make nids play style different but also to slightly change the nature of the game for the opponent as well to better reflect a Tyranid invasion.

Firstly I was thinking on a tyranid spacecraft (200 points) that allows you to deploy units via drop pod at about 50 points per pod.
The space craft can arrive any turn (including the turn the opponents space ship arrives - to represent the numbers and expanse of the hive fleet). Also the space craft dies not have achy bombardment weapons. But on the turn it arrives/activates spore mines descend into the atmosphere. To represent this I thought of a few options.
1. All aircraft formations take a bm each time they come onto the board to represent the maintenance burden on aircraft flying through so many bugs (just imagine lots of traffic light windscreen cleaners coming out to scrape bugs off intake panels and canopies.

Or
2. All aicraft formations take D3/6 AA6+ hits.

Or
3. All fighter units take 1 AA6+ hit.
All fighter-bomber unitd take 2 AA6+ hits
All bombers and WE units take 3 AA6+ his

Include the venomthorpe LV. 50 points for negligible CC and FF but provides -1 to hit and prevents enemy from distinguishing between AP and AT targets.

Restrict spawning to specific spawning units such as the tervigon or spawning pool. Formation of 3 tervigons for 250 points producing D3+1 gaunts per turn.

And finally adopting the gaunt rule from epic uk.

There is a bit in there but what are peoples thoughts on the ideas?

Cheers
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 Post subject: Re: My opinion of the Approved Tyranid List
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:41 am 
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+1 for what Dave said

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