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[Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call

 Post subject: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:49 pm 
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This is the last call for stats. Looking back at the first thread I believe this is what's left. If there's anything I'm missing put it forward.

Mycetic Spore

I think the drop pods mechanics should work well enough for these. In other words they'd pretty much be a glorified marker. I don't think we need to give them special stats but what does everyone else think?

Ripper Swarms

Again, not sure these needs stats in EA, as we can probably abstract them out into FF/CC attacks like Scarabs in the Necron list. Anyone planning on using them in a list as a unit?

Meiotic Spore

There's a couple of things we could do we these. Leave them as is as a separate unit, abstract them out into a special rule, make them a character upgrade that you can add to units to give them AA shots (maybe 1 AA9+ shot for every two/three/four units or something). Thoughts? If we make them units should they have Support Craft?

Vituperator

Arkturas and Frogbear, what do you want to do with this guy?

Hive Ship

I think the presence of Space Craft in the nid list can be abstracted out into the rules for spawning well enough. The extra creatures that are picked up by swarms along the way could easily be creatures dropped from the Hive Ship.

Also, giving the Tyranids pre-plotted orbital bombardment seems to clash with the idea that they come solely to consume a world, not to attack it and claim it as a military objective.

Thoughts

Synapse Node

Again, what do people want to do with this one? I'll add the Brood Nest rules in 40k pretty much function as a Wraithgate, so we could just use the same rules here (replace an objective on the 'nid half of the board and be able to bring formations in reserve out of it). Thoughts?

Vitagon

Arkturas can you put forward your stats and thoughts for this guy?

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:11 pm 
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Mycetic Spore:
I agree. Else i would mark every terrain in a 15cm radius as Dangerous Terrain for all non-Tyranid Infantry as this area is littered with Mycetic Spores who attack anything within reach.

Ripper Swarms:
Yes best left as an EA indicator for Tyranid Structures and/or Malanthropes.

Meiotic Spore:
Well literal translation would be that the Meiotic Spore is a LV without armor. If it is destroyed or get's into a ZoC for an enemy unit it self-destructs as a Heavy Bolter and shurns out D6 sporemines (AP5+).
Rather unpractical.

Better:
Infantry 15cm move Sv6+
Spore Mine Sacs 15cm 1BP One-shot

Note: The Spore Sacks can attack aircrafts. Thread aircrafts as Infantry on the Barrage Template Table. Meiotic Spores which have attacked are removed from play.

Vituperator:
Drop it.

Hive Ship/Razorfiend Cruiser:
Keepit. Yes they want to consume the planet but some bodily fluids help to devour it (yikes!)

Synapse Node/Brood Nests:
Wraithgate rules seem like a very good idea :)

Also:
Spore Mine Cluster:
Same as Razor-wire but BP template sized terrain feature instead of a line.

Spore Chimney:
Makes everythin within 15cm radius Dangerous Terrain for non-Tyranids. Even for aircraft.

Capillary Tower:
Tyranids within a 15cm radius of a Capillary Tower are threated as if in 6+ Cover.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:38 pm 
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Those last three definitely should make an appearance in the Xenos scenarios. Very cool ideas. I don't know about a tournament list though, those effects would be hard to balance. Closest thing would be the fixed emplacements you can buy for the siege lists.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:52 pm 
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I've got a pair of converted Vituperators so slight bias in favour but purely as part of a Bio-Titan list. Essentially a bigger Harridan with the Spore Pod Bio-Titan weapon.

As to the Reaver Sized Trygon - I'd put it in the gap above the Hierophant and below the Hydraphant/Hierarch following the design theme of the Trygon (Fast CC Bio-Titan (TK weapons) with a slightly lighter save 5+RA, maybe Tunneller). Again it's a Bio-Titan list creature. Following the direction of the big Bio-Titans my stats are way above the others so it would be best to follow the design theme to get something that fits in.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:44 am 
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Dave wrote:
Vituperator

Arkturas and Frogbear, what do you want to do with this guy?


Sorry

Just been keeping out of discussions as much as possible so as not to just echo opinions.

I like the idea of a Vit but when I first saw it I wondered as to what role it played as opposed to the Harridan. The Planetfall and Synapse is definitely usable (insert hive ship here) and quite a few people do actually have a model for it (even though they were a rare production from FW). So I say keep it.


Quote:
Hive Ship
I think the presence of Space Craft in the nid list can be abstracted out into the rules for spawning well enough. The extra creatures that are picked up by swarms along the way could easily be creatures dropped from the Hive Ship.
Also, giving the Tyranids pre-plotted orbital bombardment seems to clash with the idea that they come solely to consume a world, not to attack it and claim it as a military objective.
Thoughts


Not fussed, however how about the costing of the mycetic spores? Will the cost of the now missing hive ship be built in?


Quote:
Synapse Node
Again, what do people want to do with this one? I'll add the Brood Nest rules in 40k pretty much function as a Wraithgate, so we could just use the same rules here (replace an objective on the 'nid half of the board and be able to bring formations in reserve out of it). Thoughts?


That is what we did in Tarrasque and I really do like the idea of it. Better than the 9.2.1 representation.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:08 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
I like the idea of a Vit but when I first saw it I wondered as to what role it played as opposed to the Harridan. The Planetfall and Synapse is definitely usable (insert hive ship here) and quite a few people do actually have a model for it (even though they were a rare production from FW). So I say keep it.

That Forge World model is a Harridan, I have 2-3 myself. It's about right for a DC3-4 flyer, but way too small for something meant to be DC6. A properly scaled D6 Tyranid flyer would probably dwarf a Tau Manta and there's no easy or good way to convert one.

I say ditch the Vitipurator. If the FW Harridan is used for the Harridan the older small metal one still has a use as a Harpy.


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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:14 pm 
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The body of the GW Harridan is nearly perfect for a Trule Scale (1:5 reduction of the 40k model) Trygon. So it would be a perfect fit for a Harpy.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:39 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
The body of the GW Harridan is nearly perfect for a Trule Scale (1:5 reduction of the 40k model) Trygon. So it would be a perfect fit for a Harpy.


Ideal yes but perhaps unobtainable for most considering you'll probably need a minumum of 3.

I built my Harridans on 40k gaunts and Vituperators on the same with bigger Wings and Claws.

If the Harridan stays at DC3 then the Vituperator could be placed at DC4/5. Potentially the Vituperator could be the Synapse version of the Harridan (like what the Dom is to the Bio-Titans).

Mycetic spores I think should be the same as drop-pods and should just be bought as a formation upgrade.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Mycetic Spore

Pure Drop pod mechanics. Perhaps with the added possibility to actually land in dangerous terrain. This would make Tyranid sense, I think.

Meiotic Spore

I think the later suggestions of adding Scout to these were promising. It is possible to create some sort of AA umbrella on the board without the need of an abstract special rule. I also think there is a confusion between 40K Meiotic Spores and the Epic AA unit. Without any knowledge of the design process at that time, I believe this unit was invented from the background in IA4, where a Thunderhawk ran into atmospheric mines and made an emergency landing due to the damages. It has nothing really to do with the mine-laying greater spore mine that is used in 40K. Perhaps a name change would be in place, if the AA mines are kept. I think gargoyles will do for swarms' AA abilities. Adding another AA brood creature seems unnecessary.

Support Craft could be used, but it would only be to the Spore Mines' disadvantage given their short range and lack of anything but AA weapons.

Vituperator

I think there could be a niche for a flying titan-creature. But it should be argued on future lists' merits. I think the Transport capacity could go, though. Unless Transport is making its way back into the Tyranid lists.

Hive Ship

Again, the inclusion should be weighed on future lists' demands. As you say yourself, the fact that there are Tyranids on the planet at all already suggests planet-wide invasion. If the customary spaceship requirement for planetfall is dropped, it opens up new possibilities for Tyranid drop pod deployment as in the Onachus list.

Thoughts on synapse nodes/brood nests etc:

I do not see the need for the community to come up with rules for units not actually used by the lists in development. This should clearly be the part of future list development and as such, decisions made by list developers.

I think the Brood Nest unit used in the Leviathan rule is a fun experiment in doing something new, adding a static unit close to an objective that serves a tactical purpose. If these kinds of units would simply echo the Eldar portal, it would be hard to add such abilities since an objective cannot be destroyed. Also, the Eldar portals are their way of using teleport/drop pod options. Since Tyranids have teleporting/tunnelling/drop podding units, a portal is not really needed in my opinion. It would also go against the design choice of giving Tyranids 20 cm move and not being able to garrison.

Another example is the 9.2.1 Synapse Node. It seems to me to be designed in order to garrison bio-artillery to justify their points' value and uncommon brood slot (at least that is how I have used it). If Dactylii are given 15 cm move, which they seem to be at the moment, the NEED for a Synapse Node has vanished and adds nothing but a frustrating hard-to-kill fearless blitz guard. In conclusion, these kinds of units should be developed as part of list development, to further distinguish or see to the needs for a list to function. They should not be pre-determined in a way that really seems to hamper future development.

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:37 pm 
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Mycetic Spore

Drop pods without deathwind.

Ripper Swarms

FF/CC extra attacks for Malanthrope and structures.

Meiotic Spore

I really like them as seperate units, albeit with 30cm range. Possibly scout and a price bump. Definitely no Support Craft, that's an unneccessary special rule and they can float up and down in 40k.

Vituperator

The 40k codex says the Harridan is the biggest 'nid flyer.

Hive Ship

If we're having Mycetic Spores, we need a Hive Ship to drop them from, both from a logical and a costing point of view. You can think of the bombardment as firing a vast number of grubs to consume and area; that's basically what they do in BFG.

Synapse Node

If we're losing the 9.2.1 swarm system and moving towards fixed formations, the old Synapse Node is useless. In Leviathan I have an immobile War Engine Brood Nest, which boosts spawning for units within 30cm, has spore chimney AA and hive guard shooting attacks.

Vitagon

Shrug.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:27 pm 
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An alternative to Meiotic Spores on the table is to buy them as one-shot weapons that can be used as the Tyranid player chooses whenever (and only when) an opposing player brings on aircraft. There are afterall spores everywhere and it should be easy enough to balance.

Mycetic Spores and Rippers I agree with Zombocom

Synapse Node if included I think should go down the immobile WE route that boosts Spawning. It could also provide the AA cover in lieu of Meiotic spores.

The hiveship is not neccessarily needed if the Mycetic spores are just bought as formation upgrades (the cost is on the spore rather than the ship). Pick your target drop point and turn of entry at the start of the game and go from there.


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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:06 pm 
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Vituperator should be dropped as gw are very clear that the harridan is the biggest bid flyer. A unit for a Titan variant list if anything at all.

Hive ship sounds awesome to have.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:28 pm 
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Note on Vituperator: Even if GW mentions that the Harridan is the largest atmospheric Tyranid creature that has been encountered, that is a fact that contains a small print footnote reading for now, and as such only refer to the different hive fleets we do know something of.

If Forgeworld or GW decides to create a bigger beast, they will. The Tyranid range gives artistic freedom, since the race is meant to develop further. It also frees the designer from the Stormraven dilemma. Suddenly, new descriptions of historical battles are filled with Stormravens buzzing around the place.

The Vituperator should be addressed in the development of future army lists. It should fill a need, or add something that defines the list. I do not think it should be in the Leviathan list. The Onachus has a fair amount of artistic freedom since it pre-dates any real descriptions. I do not know where the bio-titan or Tarrasque lists situate themselves historically.

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:51 pm 
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"They are the largest of any Tyranid capable of flight"

I have nothing against creating new units for epic where needed (see my profile picture), but where they break with GW canon then we shouldn't do it.

Likewise, is the Vituperator really needed? It's not like the nids are really lacking in Titan sized units.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Last Call
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:59 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
"They are the largest of any Tyranid capable of flight"

I have nothing against creating new units for epic where needed (see my profile picture), but where they break with GW canon then we shouldn't do it.

Likewise, is the Vituperator really needed? It's not like the nids are really lacking in Titan sized units.


As you've noted for Meiotic Spores, I've got Vituperator models. However I'm not leaning either way on whether to keep or not. Worst case scenario I've got a pair of unique Harridans with a Synapse Symbiote.

I'm flipping around as things come to me but if the Tyranid Prime is kept separate the Synapse Symbiote could be a WE only upgrade with enhanced abilities (such as the additional MW attack) that could easily be used to represent the Vituperator as an upgraded Harridan.


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